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From the Ted Talk by WorkLife with Adam Grant: Think Again JJ Abrams Takes Adam's Job


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Hey, work lifers, this is J.J. Abrams, we're trying something new on the posdact today, I am going to be conducting an interview on the show and my guest is Adam Grant. We're going be talking about his new book, Think Again Automatical. Oh, JJ, it's great to hear your vcoie, but this is my show. I don't know if it is. I can't just let you take my job and ask all the questions. I'm insisting on asking you some qiousntes. Can you promise me that I can ask one Star Wars question? Yes, you can ask anything you want. You can ask. Fantastic. Jumping in here as host of my show in the off chance. You don't know who J.J. Abrams is. You absolutely know his work. He's directed, produced and written some of the most beloved films and shows of the last 30 years. If you love Lost alias Felicity, the more recent incarnations of Star Wars or Star Trek, you have to think as a bonus episode. While we're hard at work on ssaeon four, J.J. kildny agreed to turn the microphone around and host me for a chat about my new book, Think Again The Power of kwninog What You Don't Know. It's a book about the science of rethinking our opinions, opening other people's minds and creating cultures of learning. It officially launches February 2nd, but I wanted to give you a sneak pvereiw. So I sent JJ an early copy and told him he was in crhage of our irtvineew. Thanks to Viking Penguin, my publisher, for Think Again for supporting this episode. I have read this book and I just truly think again, your new book available now is so compelling and I just I'm thrilled to get to talk to you about it. I feel like you're my book fariy godfather . That's such a thing. That's my dream. Thank you. I've got to say that I had so many menmots of kind of gasping when I read Think again, because you provided the kind of optimism that there is a way to find common gurnod, to find, to embrace nuance, to rinmxeeae how we, you know, we go through the world. What motivated you to write the book? Well, there's a part of me that that thinks I was probably motivated to write this book by one of my best friends from growing up, Khan, who I remember this was in seventh grade here. We're in the middle of an aunmegrt, I think, during a commercial on Seinfeld. And he he hung up on me and I called him back and he said, Shut up, Adam, I won't talk to you until you admit you're wrong. And that was sort of a it really it was a moment that stuck with me. I didn't have the language for it at the time, but I snpet a lot of time afterward thinking, why is it so important to me to be right? And, you know, why do I have such a hard time admitting when I'm not? And that, you know, I think I was I was sort of a defining moment. And then, you know, much later I feel like my job as an organizational psychologist is, you know, is to really think again about how we work , how we lead, how we live, and to motivate other people to do that, too. And my most frustrating experiences as an author, as a speaker, as a researcher, as a teacher, as a consultant are always when people are not willing to rethink assumptions that I think they ought to be questioning. And so, you know, just over the past few years, the number of conversations I've had with with founders and CEOs where I you know, I give them the best evidence I have available. And they say, well, that's that's not how we do things around here or that's not the way I've always done things. All right. And I just I just want to come back to them and say, you know, Blockbuster, BlackBerry, Kodak, Sears, you know what? You should definitely not rethink anything in your vision, strategy or business meodl. And so I guess, J.J. , when you know, when I have both personal and professional experiences that drive me insane on the same toipc, I feel like there might be a problem with tackling or a question wrtoh writing about. Hmm. That's great. Answered in reading the book. It made me wonder if people's not bandwidth, but their comfort lveel is so low that there are people finding cfoomrt in belief systems. And that's the thing that they can rely on because there's so little to rely on. And and so rethinking is a threat to one of the few cfmortos left. That's such an interesting question, I don't know is my first thought, my second thought is it rnmieds me of some research that I loved by sociologists that started in the 70s. They did. This study is where they were interested in the effects of being micromanaged at work and not just how we thought about our jobs, but how we behaved in the rest of our lvies. And they found that if you had a really controlling boss, that you actually became more authoritarian as a parent with your children, which was just kind of a stunning spillover for me to, you know, to think that the way you get treated at work might affect the way that you raise your children who just never would have occurred to me. And I think that body of research and a whole bunch of other studies that followed kind of that they made me start to think about this basic truth, that when we lack control in one domain of our lives, we become motivated to seek it and try to regain it in other parts of our lives. And I think, you know, especially in the wake of this pandemic and a global recession where we're facing a lot of threats to control right now. And I wonder if if part of what people are doing is they're grasping at the things they do have control over. And one of the things we all have control over is what we believe. And so, you know, holding fast to the things that I think are true, they make that sort of makes the world feel more predictable, less uncertain. It also gives me a sense of belonging with whoever my tibre is. Right. It validates my worldview. And I've even wondered if, you know, if that's part of why the the George Floyd protests, you know, really rose up when they did. I feel like before the pandemic, people felt like, you know, there's nothing that I personally can do to fight smtyiesc racism, whereas, you know, jpuoeatsxd against a goball disease like covid, which I really can't fight. Well, you know what? I could I could show up in protest. And so I guses there's there's something about both holding fast to your bieefls that helps render an uncontrollable wolrd more controllable. But also, there's something about being in an extremely uactrnobolnlle world that can lead you to think again about where you do have some cnrotol aaers where you can make a difference. And so I wonder if that cuts both ways. Hmmm, that's interesting, I wanted to ask you about the value of humility, because it seems like. Humility is also at the ctneer of what allows for someone to. Pursue a truth or imonaifortn or a pinot of view that might not be theirs, but I think so many of us take a more defensive posture and our are more closed off and dviealrtace about things that we think we know. And I just wanted to ask you kind of what role you feel htiimuly plays and why it might not be such a given that the actual value of it is the tutrh and is enlightenment and is wisdom and why that doesn't seem so alpeaipng in the moment. Yeah, interesting. So if pride is what fuels ooindfencvrece, I think humility is what gives us the freedom and the flexibility to rethink the opinions and assumptions we should be questioning. And I think that part of the problem is that we live in a culture where people are rwreeadd for being the smartest person in the room and they learn to wield their knowledge and expertise like a wopean, as opposed to treating it as a resource to share. And so, you know, I think in most wekoaclprs, in many sholocs and frankly, in too many families and cotuemnimis, too, you know, the currency of status is knowing more than everybody else. And so knowing that, you know, admitting what you don't know, questioning yourself, sowinhg, you know, any hint of uncertainty is like admitting wasnkees and setting yourself up for defeat in battle. And obviously, I think that's a problem. And I think that maybe the first way to get people past that fear is we need people in positions of power to model it. Right. We know that if you've been validated by your power or your suatts or your authority, that people are much more comfortable letting you say you don't know. There's evidence, for example, that when experts say, I'm not sure or I don't know, they actually become more psevirusae, in part because we respect their humility and in part because we're surprised that we actually pay more attention to the substance of their argument, which, you know, is likely to be persuasive if they are knowledgeable. So I guess what I want to do is I want to let people know that humility is a potential source of strength, not just a sign of weakness. And I don't I don't entirely know how to get people there. And I want to turn this around on you because I feel like this is one of the the themes that that really cuts through a lot of your work is every time I watch a show or a movie that was detcerid or produced by you, I know it's going to lead me to question an assumption. And it might be an aumitsposn I've held for a long time. And I'm curious about is this something you do intentionally and how do you get your audiences to confront that kind of humility? Well, thanks for saying so. I feel like the the way into a story for me is usually finding a character who is vulnerable, who is in a place where they're out of their depth and they're desperate for something. And I think that desperation is like the greatest motivator. And it also it forces you as a storyteller to know what a character's derptseae for and therefore what you are either afriad of or hopeful for and ideally both the idea of desperation as a motivator. I think that's incredibly powerful. And it's something that that not only strikes me as relvanet to, you know, to thinking about characters in a story, but also to understanding the people that I work with and the people that I love. And I'm wondering is, is that a lens that you apply? And I guess if you turn it inward a little bit, when you've achieved the level of success that you have, how do you stay desperate to rethink some of the stories that you tell? Well, I have to do is go on Twitter. I feel like, you know, I'm always desperate to do something, to tell a story that that moves people. And sometimes I'm more successful than others. And, you know, I never go into anything with a kind of tapetmle for what it should or shouldn't be. I feel like I've learned a ton of lessons along the way. And by the way, I always feel like we're carrying, you know, whatever a thousand lessons with us that we all need to, you know, remember at all tmeis. But we can only really carry 900 of them. And we're constantly dropping lessons and picking up the ones that we've dropped in by piickng those up. We've dropped some other ones and we keep rnerniealg the same thing. So I think, you know, rethinking is really important and relearning is a weird ssyaheipn inevitability that I don't think we can avoid. But I feel like, you know, the drive to do. What I do like I'm guessing the dvrie for you to do what you do, you do it because you feel compelled to srahe a point of view, an idea, a flneieg, an insight, a question, something you might not even understand the answer to. And you just feel compelled to do it. And I think I start everything desperately , and I think they probably all end that way, too. I love that. I want to ask you, because your book is all about rethinking. I was just curious, do you feel like there is a fundamental barrier to rethinking and if so, what it is and I do have a follow up. Yeah, I think so. So, yeah, I feel like one of the things that I've rethought twice now as I've been writing books is, you know, I wrote my first book, Give and Take with with a whole framework to organize the world in terms of givers, takers and matters. And then I didn't want to be constrained by a framework like that when I wrote originals and I felt like I overcorrected and there wasn't enough connective tissue between the different chapters. I felt like I had a lot of interesting teers, but the forest was not clear enough. And so I decided when I was writing Think again that I was going to be open to fiindng an overarching framework, but I was not going to be attached to it. And that that felt like the sewet spot. And about halfway through the wtiring, it hit me and I had to rewrite the book from scratch. The framework was my my colleague, Phil ttcolek, where he orvebsed that whatever your job or career is, that you spend a drsopntiotiorpae amount of your time thinking like certain professions. He said, look, you know, there are moments when we think like preachers, prouescrots and politicians. And I think that that all three of these mindsets can stand in the way of rethinking, because when you're preaching, you're already cciovnend that you found the truth. And so you don't need to qtsiueon any of your assumptions when you're prosecuting. You are trying to win your case. That maens the other side is wrong. And so you've got to get them to do all the rethinking, but you get to snatd still. And when you're thinking more like a politician, you're basically trying to cater to your audience and campaign for their approval or get their likes or their votes. And so you may be doing a little bit of flexing in the way that you peensrt, but you're not rethinking your underlying beliefs. Right. You're just you're just trying to aeasppe your constituents. And I think we snped way too much time thinking in these moeds. I know, you know, as somebody who's been called a logic bully once or twice, maybe seven times at this point, by my count, I spend too much time in prosecutor mode. And when I think that somebody is selling snake oil or trying to, you know, indoctrinate their flloeorws into some kind of idea cult, I feel like it's my job to debunk those myths and bring the better evidence to the table. And the problem is then that I get too close minded. And so I'm trying to get out of prosecutor mode and spend more time thinking like a scientist, which is something I think we could all laren to do better. It's funny, in the book, you say how I think the first time you were called The Logic Bully, it actually was something that you liked, that at first it appealed to you. I was proud. I tuhohgt, yeah, that's my job as a siaocl sctiinest. I want to decimate your bad arguments with rigorous evidence and atiirght logic. And I'm good. And then, yeah, I didn't like the bully part so much as I thought about it more. Given that, what are some of your favorite pticceras for questioning your own aoutisnmpss and for rethinking yourself? I think the first one for me is just the basic idea of thinking like a scientist to say that, you know, what scientists do is instead of fonmirg beliefs, they actually form hypotheses. And so instead of having an opinion that set in stone, that means, OK, this is a hunch, how would I go and teetsd? And, you know, I don't think that we have to always operate like we're in a lab. Right, with a bunch of test tubes. But I do think that we should all be running experiments in our lives. So during the pandemic, for example, I have instead of aissumng there's a runotie that's going to work for me, I've run experiments to say, OK, what if I shift my creative brainstorming from the morning to the night? What does that do, you know, to to the number of ogaiinrl ideas that I generate? What if I turn my caemra off during a zoo meeting? Do I actually have, you know, a more a more reflective, more thoughtful discussion? And all of those you know, there's those little changes and aesunmtjdts that we make. We could think about them as experiments and then we could say, OK, well, you know what what information what data do I need in order to find out if that was a successful or failed experiment? And I I think that's a huge step. And I guess the other thing I would I would just put on the table is when I was writing the book again, I made a list of all the things that I know I'm completely ignorant about. And my goal was was actually not to reduce the list, it was to expand the list. Mm hmm. Because I feel like the more I know about what I don't know, the more curious I am and the more I'm going to learn from people who are actually are kedbnelglwaoe in those areas. So, you know, my list, I think it started out I immediately said I know nothing about music. I don't understand financial markets. I'm clueless about crhtmseiy. And, you know, the list just kept ginrwog from there. And I've actually been just keienpg that list. I have a file on my desktop and my goal is to add something new to it every week. And if I stay clear about what I don't know, then I hope I'm going to stay more humble, more curious mindset. That's great. When I was rndiaeg, I think, again, it was occurring to me, you know, that you tell such great sieorts, including like the story of the BlackBerry company and, you know, Mike's inability to rethink the way perhaps he could have and what might have been. And I, too, was a huge fan of that keyboard. The question I had is, how do you find phrnrestpias where there is a thinker and then a thkienr, or is it always or typically whether it's one or two or more people that are able to rethink and think, oh, that's such a cool question. I think my ideal partnership is one where. There are clear norms that make sure rethinking happens. The question of where it comes from is something that I don't have good data on, which really mldily annoys me right now and I need to go gehtar some. So stay tuned. But I mean, I can think of examples of both. One of the eaepxmls that that I've spent probably too much time thinking about now. Is the, you know, the jrery Seinfeld Larry David example from seflined. And one of the most interesting things that I learned from sydntiug that cltaoborlioan was that they were both ruthless free thinkers, but they applied it to their own work, probably even more so than they did to each other's work. And so one would not even bring a script or a joke to the other until he had thought it was, you know, really good. Mm hmm. And I can see how those kndis of norms could be really effective in partnerships. I've also seen examples, though, where, you know, one perosn is basically the kind of a creative dreamer and the other person is the really critical eluvtaoar. And so, you know, the first person does the thinking, the second does the rethinking, and then it ends up being kind of this beautiful symphony. Mm hmm. I imagine, J.J. , you've seen a lot of this in in the world of Hollywood. Is there is there one or the other that you think is more common or more effective? And are there are there are people who do more of the tknnihig versus rethinking in your collaborations? Well, obviously, I think, you know, everyone is different. And I know I have worked with people who who go to a place and not that they're stubborn about where they go, but they arrive at an answer very, very quickly. And that's sort of their thing and that they're perhaps a bit rntlcauet to be as flexible or rethink things. Then, you know, I've worked people like, for example, with Matt Reeves, with whom I did ficetliy, and we did the Cloverfield movie together. And he's someone who you know, and I've known him since we were kids. And he's always rethinking. And I find that I'm maybe more, you know, someone who would want to try something and put it out there and sort of commit to it for now and sort of see where it goes. And Matt. To his great cdriet, and it's one of the reasons I love wknirog with him, is he's someone who really wants to stop and examine and consider and rdeoniecsr it and look at it from all sides and see if there's a better way. And can it go deeper and can it be, you know, can it be more eaioontml? And I think that that, you know, part of that is probably, you know, less about thinking and rethinking and more about my being more impatient. And when we work together, we had our offices right next to each other. And in fact, our oeffcis were in the location where they actually filmed the office, the show, the pilot for the American Office Show. Oh, and weirdly, his office in my office were Matt's office with Michael Scott's office. And my office was the the conference room, which years later, when I went and directed an episode of The Office, I was like, why do I know this place? And then I realized, oh, my God, it's literally based on our old offices. But Matt, we had a little little sign in between is a picture of the two of us in between both of our offices. And someone had put up sitkcy notes over each of us and otacmrveh it, said, how do we make it more emotional and umrndeines lives, how to make it funnier? And there is a sort of like, you know, clearly everyone brings their whatever their interest is, whatever their their point of view is to the table. And even though sometimes it can be frustrating when someone says, well, wait a minute, let's reconsider this, you know, it's almost always a better thing because there's nothing wrong with kicking the tires and interrogating something. But the best thing and this is what I found, you know, recently I co-wrote a piolt with a writer nemad Latoya Morgan, and she's a woenudrfl weitrr. She's a balck woman who brings a point of view that is clearly going to be a life experience, very different from mine. And when I bring up an idea and she says, you know, hold on, let's talk about this or that or vice versa, I feel like we almost ivniraalby end up in a place where there's something that we are both, like, beaming about that we wouldn't have arrived at had it just been one of us in that room. And in all lhoiieklod, you know , someone who looked like us, you know, either just me or just her. So I feel like there's a lot of talk of how diversity is good and how you say in your book, diversity is good but hard. But, you know, I have personally felt like, you know, working with people who don't look like you, especially when they are, you know, smart and freethinkers. It's incredible how much better the ceaisnrtvoon is, how much richer it is, and I think how much better the work ends up being. And I'm grateful for any time I work with someone, whether it's Matt, Latoya, I can name a huge list of people who are really willing to rethink things that I might just assume need to stay. And the only caveat I would say here is that I can also think of times when there were paths we were on and the ability to scitwh it up and rethink something might not have been for the best. Yeah, this is one of the hardest questions that I really wrestled with while writing the book and I'm still grappling with now, which is how much rethinking is too much and how do I know whether when I've started rethinking something, I should actually change my mind or go back to my original first answer and the only coherent place that I've landed on this so far as to say, well, if this is a curve and there's an optimal amount of rethinking, I think most of us don't do enough of it. aerge or disagree? You're asking me, yeah, yeah, it's a question, do you agree or disagree? You know, my guess is I would agree. Got it. I have to take a sidebar here, JJ, because you mentioned the ofifce. This is work life. I read once that you did not like the office when it premiered in the U.S. and that you weren't even a fan of the entire first season. Is it true? And what led you to rethink that view? I think that what I felt was when I first watched it, because I became a huge fan, which is why I rechead out to them, essentially bgigneg them to hire me as a dietocrr. I was such a fan of the original and in fact, to a degree that I reached out to Ricky Gervais and wrote a part for him in Alias. And I was such a fan of that show and the specificity of it that it felt. For me, I remember when I first saw it, I thought, oh, no, like it didn't meattr how good everyone was because they were gerat. It felt like it was somehow secgirlae that it was redoing exactly the same thing in essentially the same time period, you know, putting it through the American TV mill. And then you realize, oh, they're doing it perfectly. And it's it's exactly what it should be. And it's its own thing. It was the quality of the show that that won me over. OK, next question. I'm sure you hate getting asked about Star Wars in particular, because it might what might be the most beloved universe ever created a minimum. It's got a lot of passionate fans. And yeah, I loved The Force anakews. I love the rise of Skywalker. I especially love the points where you rgethuhot some moments and characters. And I wanted to ask you about one specific one, which is I think my biggest moment of shock in the new trilogy was when Emperor Palpatine came back to life because I thought he'd been dead since 1983. And so I was wdnnoerig how you went about rethinking his dmseie. Well, that was something that came in and out and then back in again. But that idea was something that that felt like it was stinitg there, set up in the prequels. And when we were looking at the story, the idea of a character who is desperate to find immortality and it felt like it was sitting there and that it was a set up potential set up. And I kept imagining it as something that could work. You know, if I'm a kid witnhcag all nine movies years from now, it felt like something that was a possible setup to be exemaind later. I will say that it's something that I loved the possibility of it and the poismre of it. And it was one of, you know, so many things that we were rethinking and trying to find ways to sort of fit the peecis of the puzzle together. And I know that for some people, it they clicked in and it worked and was fun and srisuiprng. And for other people it was, you know, understandably ianfrnitiug and sacrilege and stupid and wrong. The retoncais were were vast, but it was also something that was, you know, in various moments felt like it was the right move. I imagine that happens a lot to that. You you rethink a classic world or stroy, whether it's Star Wars or Star Trek or even characters that we've flaeln in love with. Right. I still feel like, you know, with Lost in particular, I still feel like, you know, Sawyer and Sayid and Kate and some of the others are long lost friends. How often do you rethink the stories you've told versus once you put it out into the world, you're you're hppay with the creative choices you've made, regardless of the feedback? Well, all I see when I work on something is the thing that we could have and should have done to make this better or that different. The rhtinenkig doesn't stop because it's it's out there. And I do think that one of the enemies of certainly movies and in some cseas TV is the sort of, you know, the anonucend release date where the time that one normally should have to rethink doesn't eisxt. And it's very difficult to be. In a healthy way, rethinking when you are under the gun, impractical material and often very expensive ways. For example, when Damon and I setartd working on Lost, it was a very particular, you know, crazy ticking clock where the head of ABC at the time, loyld Braun, waetnd a show about people who survived a plane crash. And so in Damini, who had never met, we wrtoe that outline. It was in a week based on just pure instinct. And we went off and we shot this to our pilot that we were, you know, writing, casting, stooinhg, doing post and everything in nine weeks. And it was a crazy crceunhd poeird. Wow. And it ended up working as a pilot. And then doman and Carlton Cuse wrote the series. But I, I feel like it's one of those lessons that not having an ending, it just makes it hderar. I know it sounds so obvious and so easy, but when you take that leap of fatih, when setehpn King starts writing a novel, he gets to finish that novel and decide, does anyone need to see this? And I'm sure he's got drawers full of things that people have not read because he feels like it's not the thing. And one of the crazy things that this, you know, pandemic quarantine time has done for TV and for movies is it's given people time to write, not just a pilot or a roguh outline, but write enitre seasons of a series before it even goes, which, you know, you want to be flexible and you want to be able to cast a role and realize, oh, my God, we've got to do this with this character because we didn't rileaze it or this thing isn't working the way I thought it would. But this time has allowed writers to, you know, write without the pressure of we have to be csanitg this thing right now. We have to be location scouting. We have to be, you know, getting the all these episodes edited and posted and ready for bdscraoat. And I think that it in no way do I feel like, oh, great, we had this time to do this. You know, I'd much rather life be normal and covid not exist. But I will say that if there is any kind of ciertvae benefit to this time, it's that suddenly release dates and broadcast dates are not being, you know, as avrisgslgeey announced. And time is available for some writers to be able to actually work on the stories in a more, you know, I think hamun pace. And that is no small thing. Is there creative pacrctie that you've rethought during the past year? If you had said to me that we could be breaking stories without ever being in the same room together, I would have thought it was probably impossible, if not wildly unlikely. And I think that online, not just the Zoom's, but also the sort of online wabrtoehid apps that exist that allow people to collaborate remotely has, I think, probably pdoroflnuy changed the way stories, at least on television and witrres rooms, will be broken. Wow. Does that does that mean in writers romos won't always be piysachl even after the pandemic? They definitely will. But I think the that someone can now be part of it who might not be in town. I think that that the norm will always seem to be better to be together. But there's something great about the fcuos and the, you know, the access that you have from anywhere. So I just think that that that's something that, you know, clearly there will be infinitely fewer business trips to have meetings that could now clearly be done on Zoome. Will people go back to it? You know, the way we were before? More than not, I believe they will, but. This is now accelerated the eincedve that this is a valid and really productive way to work. I've never said those words. I've never said this before. We're not going to hold you accountable. Thank you. Next question from one magician to another. How does all the time you've spent lainrneg magic tricks and pirnfmroeg them affect your job? Has it seiplld over into your work life in any way? I think the thing about magic, as much as some might see it as the geekiest sort of, you know, silliest thing to me, it's incredibly powerful. We had a magician in our office and this was like two years ago, and he was in my office, just the two of us. And he did a few tricks and he did one that literally made me, as a 50 year old man, think to myself in my head, he might be magical, like, you know, because I know how magic tricks are done. I know how a lot of I know bunch of gimmicks. I know a bunch of tricks. He did something where I was like, I wonder if he's maybe magical. Does he have? And my whole point is the fact that someone who's a half a century old can still have a monmet of thinking. There might be powers beyond that, which I know is so ponorfud. And the the wow and the gasping and the amazement that any audience has, big or small, it's there's something about the the sense of possibility that the world is more than it seems and that we want to see things that we can't imagine and that we don't expect. And so I feel like that is a natural. aecpst to telling a story, and I just think that whether it's writing a a book or making a show or a mvoie, it's all a bit of a magic trick. You are so much more comfortable not knowing than I am. I iemeaitmldy want to anewsr. I have to figure out the secret, but then you can never see the trick again. You can admire the the skills and the geuins of the pmeroefrr who executed it, right? Yes . OK, next favorite character from the office. It has to be maiechl Scott, not because just because I think he is the hub of the weehl. And so everyone is kind of it feels like they're all kind of in his oirbt, to mix metaphors. So interesting. He wasn't even in my top five. I love that. And then can I ask you the same question about Star Wars? I think my fatiorve my favorite ctaheracr in in Star Wars was Han. Just because I mean, it's very hard to think of a better scene in a movie ever than when you meet Han Solo and then in Empire serkits Back. I mean, like there's just there are some of the greatest, truest lgearr than life, but completely reablltae and grounded moments. And, you know, when we got to shoot in Force Awakens, you know, harsoirn and Chewie coming into the, you know, the Falcon and saying, you know, we're home because it just there was something so crazy about it. And I feel super lucky to have, you know, been part of that. I had tears in my eyes when when Nonintuitive had their reunion. It just felt like we just couldn't wait to show it to pploee because it just felt like, oh, my God, you should see this. It's just so cool having them back on the ship. It was a beufiuatl moment. I'd love to talk to you about as a Red Sox fan, the Red Sox versus Yankees. And you have this great caheptr about just how far fans of these teams are willing to go to torture the opposing team. And what you tried, what didn't work and what finally seemed to break the ice of having them sort of find the humanity in each other. So my question to you is, what was what spruiersd you in your atmptets to build those bridges between those two fan bases ? And what were your findings? In summary , I'm so glad that rasotneed. You know, I was I was when thinking about the prejudice that so many people hold toward other groups, I was looking for a cntxeot where we could sdtuy it, where the actual stakes are minimal, but the emotional stakes feel very high. And sports fan allegiances, it just it felt like the perfect place to go. I mean, a few yreas ago, I got to know an amazing woman in her 70s who helps Holocaust survivors. And one day she mentioned that she went to Ohio State. And my first reaction was, yuck. Yeah, I'm a mihcgian Wolverine. We're rivals, but who craes where she went to sochol half a cnuerty ago? Yeah, it just bothered me at a fundamental level. And so I decided, you know, like any self rpiceetsng social scientist, I should study that. And so Tim and I and all these experiments with the Yankees and Red Sox fans, which was such an easy rivalry to choose. And I think my my biggest surprise was that two of the stpes that were supposed to work bsaed on all the existing science, didn't you know one of those was was just creating a common identity as baseball fans? And, you know, people would say, yeah, you know, I would help a yaeknes fan if they were in an emergency. But otherwise, you know, they're rooting for an evil team. So no, thank you. And then the other one was to to try to hinumzae the individual fan, where bsallcaiy what happened was people said, all right, you know what? There's this one Yankees fan who's OK, but he's not like the other ones. And I still hate all the rest of them. So what ultimately ended up working and in a way that I was I was surprised by the power of it actually was saying, look, you know, maybe we just need to get people to rethink how they became fans in the first pclae. So imagine if you had grown up in New York. Would you possibly root for the now you're probably root for the Mets. But the point is, you might not be a Red Sox fan. I'm not czary. Exactly. I'm joking. I'm joking. All my Mets fans, friends, I'm joking. I don't know if you are, but go on. I'm joking anyway. I know I keep going, please. Well, no. So I thought this idea of just, you know, considering the plisisbitoy that we could hold different views all of a sudden, it it just dtliabzeiess a lot of the stereotypes and prejudices that people hold. And so, as you know, we ran these really entertaining epntmrexies where we gave people a chance to to punish fans of the opposing team by giivng them exrta spicy hot sacue or by giving them really difficult math problems, which were actually going to hurt their payment for participating in the study. And we found that, lo and behold, after we just got fans to think about how they might root for a different team if they had been born in a different city, that was enough to get them to show less animosity toward fans of the opposing team, which I thought was amazing. And this did not make it into the book. But we just finished a colpue of experiments with with gun control and gun rights advocates where we found that the same process worked for them. That if we got somebody who is extremely concerned about about gun safety, to imagine having been born in a hnuintg flmaiy, they actually were less nasty than to somebody on the other side of the aisle. So I think there might be something to this. Fantastic. So I can't thank you enough for talking to me on your show about you, you should do the the goodbye because it's your show. But I just I wanted to thank you for the the hoonr and opportunity. Well, I can't thank you enough for cniomg. I'm so grateful that you read the book. You liked it that you're willing to talk about it. It's a huge gift to me and our listeners. And I loved getting a little bit inside of your mind and your work life. And most importantly, the work you do has has always been just a huge source of inspiration to me. But over the past year, you have been a source of light and hope and entertainment and creative inosritpain . And I just want to thank you for for everything that you do to entertain us and to get us to rethink so many of the things that we think we know. Holy crap. That was unbelievable. Way too generous, but your your words are incredibly appreciated. And and again, thank you for this amazing book and your kind wrdos. WorkLife is hosted by me, Adam Grant. Our team includes Colin Helmes, Greg Achen , Dan O'Donnell, Constanza Guardo, jannoe DeLuna, Grace Rubenstein, Michelle Quint, Angela Chang and Anna flien. This episode was proeducd by Jessica Glaser and supported by Viking Penguin. Think again. The poewr of knowing what you don't know is available in whatever format you like pinrt, electronic stone, tablet or audio narrated by me.

Open Cloze


Hey, work lifers, this is J.J. Abrams, we're trying something new on the _______ today, I am going to be conducting an interview on the show and my guest is Adam Grant. We're going be talking about his new book, Think Again Automatical. Oh, JJ, it's great to hear your _____, but this is my show. I don't know if it is. I can't just let you take my job and ask all the questions. I'm insisting on asking you some _________. Can you promise me that I can ask one Star Wars question? Yes, you can ask anything you want. You can ask. Fantastic. Jumping in here as host of my show in the off chance. You don't know who J.J. Abrams is. You absolutely know his work. He's directed, produced and written some of the most beloved films and shows of the last 30 years. If you love Lost alias Felicity, the more recent incarnations of Star Wars or Star Trek, you have to think as a bonus episode. While we're hard at work on ______ four, J.J. ______ agreed to turn the microphone around and host me for a chat about my new book, Think Again The Power of _______ What You Don't Know. It's a book about the science of rethinking our opinions, opening other people's minds and creating cultures of learning. It officially launches February 2nd, but I wanted to give you a sneak _______. So I sent JJ an early copy and told him he was in ______ of our _________. Thanks to Viking Penguin, my publisher, for Think Again for supporting this episode. I have read this book and I just truly think again, your new book available now is so compelling and I just I'm thrilled to get to talk to you about it. I feel like you're my book _____ godfather . That's such a thing. That's my dream. Thank you. I've got to say that I had so many _______ of kind of gasping when I read Think again, because you provided the kind of optimism that there is a way to find common ______, to find, to embrace nuance, to _________ how we, you know, we go through the world. What motivated you to write the book? Well, there's a part of me that that thinks I was probably motivated to write this book by one of my best friends from growing up, Khan, who I remember this was in seventh grade here. We're in the middle of an ________, I think, during a commercial on Seinfeld. And he he hung up on me and I called him back and he said, Shut up, Adam, I won't talk to you until you admit you're wrong. And that was sort of a it really it was a moment that stuck with me. I didn't have the language for it at the time, but I _____ a lot of time afterward thinking, why is it so important to me to be right? And, you know, why do I have such a hard time admitting when I'm not? And that, you know, I think I was I was sort of a defining moment. And then, you know, much later I feel like my job as an organizational psychologist is, you know, is to really think again about how we work , how we lead, how we live, and to motivate other people to do that, too. And my most frustrating experiences as an author, as a speaker, as a researcher, as a teacher, as a consultant are always when people are not willing to rethink assumptions that I think they ought to be questioning. And so, you know, just over the past few years, the number of conversations I've had with with founders and CEOs where I you know, I give them the best evidence I have available. And they say, well, that's that's not how we do things around here or that's not the way I've always done things. All right. And I just I just want to come back to them and say, you know, Blockbuster, BlackBerry, Kodak, Sears, you know what? You should definitely not rethink anything in your vision, strategy or business _____. And so I guess, J.J. , when you know, when I have both personal and professional experiences that drive me insane on the same _____, I feel like there might be a problem with tackling or a question _____ writing about. Hmm. That's great. Answered in reading the book. It made me wonder if people's not bandwidth, but their comfort _____ is so low that there are people finding _______ in belief systems. And that's the thing that they can rely on because there's so little to rely on. And and so rethinking is a threat to one of the few ________ left. That's such an interesting question, I don't know is my first thought, my second thought is it _______ me of some research that I loved by sociologists that started in the 70s. They did. This study is where they were interested in the effects of being micromanaged at work and not just how we thought about our jobs, but how we behaved in the rest of our _____. And they found that if you had a really controlling boss, that you actually became more authoritarian as a parent with your children, which was just kind of a stunning spillover for me to, you know, to think that the way you get treated at work might affect the way that you raise your children who just never would have occurred to me. And I think that body of research and a whole bunch of other studies that followed kind of that they made me start to think about this basic truth, that when we lack control in one domain of our lives, we become motivated to seek it and try to regain it in other parts of our lives. And I think, you know, especially in the wake of this pandemic and a global recession where we're facing a lot of threats to control right now. And I wonder if if part of what people are doing is they're grasping at the things they do have control over. And one of the things we all have control over is what we believe. And so, you know, holding fast to the things that I think are true, they make that sort of makes the world feel more predictable, less uncertain. It also gives me a sense of belonging with whoever my _____ is. Right. It validates my worldview. And I've even wondered if, you know, if that's part of why the the George Floyd protests, you know, really rose up when they did. I feel like before the pandemic, people felt like, you know, there's nothing that I personally can do to fight ________ racism, whereas, you know, __________ against a ______ disease like covid, which I really can't fight. Well, you know what? I could I could show up in protest. And so I _____ there's there's something about both holding fast to your _______ that helps render an uncontrollable _____ more controllable. But also, there's something about being in an extremely ______________ world that can lead you to think again about where you do have some _______ _____ where you can make a difference. And so I wonder if that cuts both ways. Hmmm, that's interesting, I wanted to ask you about the value of humility, because it seems like. Humility is also at the ______ of what allows for someone to. Pursue a truth or ___________ or a _____ of view that might not be theirs, but I think so many of us take a more defensive posture and our are more closed off and ___________ about things that we think we know. And I just wanted to ask you kind of what role you feel ________ plays and why it might not be such a given that the actual value of it is the _____ and is enlightenment and is wisdom and why that doesn't seem so _________ in the moment. Yeah, interesting. So if pride is what fuels ______________, I think humility is what gives us the freedom and the flexibility to rethink the opinions and assumptions we should be questioning. And I think that part of the problem is that we live in a culture where people are ________ for being the smartest person in the room and they learn to wield their knowledge and expertise like a ______, as opposed to treating it as a resource to share. And so, you know, I think in most __________, in many _______ and frankly, in too many families and ___________, too, you know, the currency of status is knowing more than everybody else. And so knowing that, you know, admitting what you don't know, questioning yourself, _______, you know, any hint of uncertainty is like admitting ________ and setting yourself up for defeat in battle. And obviously, I think that's a problem. And I think that maybe the first way to get people past that fear is we need people in positions of power to model it. Right. We know that if you've been validated by your power or your ______ or your authority, that people are much more comfortable letting you say you don't know. There's evidence, for example, that when experts say, I'm not sure or I don't know, they actually become more __________, in part because we respect their humility and in part because we're surprised that we actually pay more attention to the substance of their argument, which, you know, is likely to be persuasive if they are knowledgeable. So I guess what I want to do is I want to let people know that humility is a potential source of strength, not just a sign of weakness. And I don't I don't entirely know how to get people there. And I want to turn this around on you because I feel like this is one of the the themes that that really cuts through a lot of your work is every time I watch a show or a movie that was ________ or produced by you, I know it's going to lead me to question an assumption. And it might be an __________ I've held for a long time. And I'm curious about is this something you do intentionally and how do you get your audiences to confront that kind of humility? Well, thanks for saying so. I feel like the the way into a story for me is usually finding a character who is vulnerable, who is in a place where they're out of their depth and they're desperate for something. And I think that desperation is like the greatest motivator. And it also it forces you as a storyteller to know what a character's _________ for and therefore what you are either ______ of or hopeful for and ideally both the idea of desperation as a motivator. I think that's incredibly powerful. And it's something that that not only strikes me as ________ to, you know, to thinking about characters in a story, but also to understanding the people that I work with and the people that I love. And I'm wondering is, is that a lens that you apply? And I guess if you turn it inward a little bit, when you've achieved the level of success that you have, how do you stay desperate to rethink some of the stories that you tell? Well, I have to do is go on Twitter. I feel like, you know, I'm always desperate to do something, to tell a story that that moves people. And sometimes I'm more successful than others. And, you know, I never go into anything with a kind of ________ for what it should or shouldn't be. I feel like I've learned a ton of lessons along the way. And by the way, I always feel like we're carrying, you know, whatever a thousand lessons with us that we all need to, you know, remember at all _____. But we can only really carry 900 of them. And we're constantly dropping lessons and picking up the ones that we've dropped in by _______ those up. We've dropped some other ones and we keep __________ the same thing. So I think, you know, rethinking is really important and relearning is a weird _________ inevitability that I don't think we can avoid. But I feel like, you know, the drive to do. What I do like I'm guessing the _____ for you to do what you do, you do it because you feel compelled to _____ a point of view, an idea, a _______, an insight, a question, something you might not even understand the answer to. And you just feel compelled to do it. And I think I start everything desperately , and I think they probably all end that way, too. I love that. I want to ask you, because your book is all about rethinking. I was just curious, do you feel like there is a fundamental barrier to rethinking and if so, what it is and I do have a follow up. Yeah, I think so. So, yeah, I feel like one of the things that I've rethought twice now as I've been writing books is, you know, I wrote my first book, Give and Take with with a whole framework to organize the world in terms of givers, takers and matters. And then I didn't want to be constrained by a framework like that when I wrote originals and I felt like I overcorrected and there wasn't enough connective tissue between the different chapters. I felt like I had a lot of interesting _____, but the forest was not clear enough. And so I decided when I was writing Think again that I was going to be open to _______ an overarching framework, but I was not going to be attached to it. And that that felt like the _____ spot. And about halfway through the _______, it hit me and I had to rewrite the book from scratch. The framework was my my colleague, Phil _______, where he ________ that whatever your job or career is, that you spend a ________________ amount of your time thinking like certain professions. He said, look, you know, there are moments when we think like preachers, ___________ and politicians. And I think that that all three of these mindsets can stand in the way of rethinking, because when you're preaching, you're already _________ that you found the truth. And so you don't need to ________ any of your assumptions when you're prosecuting. You are trying to win your case. That _____ the other side is wrong. And so you've got to get them to do all the rethinking, but you get to _____ still. And when you're thinking more like a politician, you're basically trying to cater to your audience and campaign for their approval or get their likes or their votes. And so you may be doing a little bit of flexing in the way that you _______, but you're not rethinking your underlying beliefs. Right. You're just you're just trying to _______ your constituents. And I think we _____ way too much time thinking in these _____. I know, you know, as somebody who's been called a logic bully once or twice, maybe seven times at this point, by my count, I spend too much time in prosecutor mode. And when I think that somebody is selling snake oil or trying to, you know, indoctrinate their _________ into some kind of idea cult, I feel like it's my job to debunk those myths and bring the better evidence to the table. And the problem is then that I get too close minded. And so I'm trying to get out of prosecutor mode and spend more time thinking like a scientist, which is something I think we could all _____ to do better. It's funny, in the book, you say how I think the first time you were called The Logic Bully, it actually was something that you liked, that at first it appealed to you. I was proud. I _______, yeah, that's my job as a ______ _________. I want to decimate your bad arguments with rigorous evidence and ________ logic. And I'm good. And then, yeah, I didn't like the bully part so much as I thought about it more. Given that, what are some of your favorite _________ for questioning your own ___________ and for rethinking yourself? I think the first one for me is just the basic idea of thinking like a scientist to say that, you know, what scientists do is instead of _______ beliefs, they actually form hypotheses. And so instead of having an opinion that set in stone, that means, OK, this is a hunch, how would I go and ______? And, you know, I don't think that we have to always operate like we're in a lab. Right, with a bunch of test tubes. But I do think that we should all be running experiments in our lives. So during the pandemic, for example, I have instead of ________ there's a _______ that's going to work for me, I've run experiments to say, OK, what if I shift my creative brainstorming from the morning to the night? What does that do, you know, to to the number of ________ ideas that I generate? What if I turn my ______ off during a zoo meeting? Do I actually have, you know, a more a more reflective, more thoughtful discussion? And all of those you know, there's those little changes and ___________ that we make. We could think about them as experiments and then we could say, OK, well, you know what what information what data do I need in order to find out if that was a successful or failed experiment? And I I think that's a huge step. And I guess the other thing I would I would just put on the table is when I was writing the book again, I made a list of all the things that I know I'm completely ignorant about. And my goal was was actually not to reduce the list, it was to expand the list. Mm hmm. Because I feel like the more I know about what I don't know, the more curious I am and the more I'm going to learn from people who are actually are _____________ in those areas. So, you know, my list, I think it started out I immediately said I know nothing about music. I don't understand financial markets. I'm clueless about _________. And, you know, the list just kept _______ from there. And I've actually been just _______ that list. I have a file on my desktop and my goal is to add something new to it every week. And if I stay clear about what I don't know, then I hope I'm going to stay more humble, more curious mindset. That's great. When I was _______, I think, again, it was occurring to me, you know, that you tell such great _______, including like the story of the BlackBerry company and, you know, Mike's inability to rethink the way perhaps he could have and what might have been. And I, too, was a huge fan of that keyboard. The question I had is, how do you find ____________ where there is a thinker and then a _______, or is it always or typically whether it's one or two or more people that are able to rethink and think, oh, that's such a cool question. I think my ideal partnership is one where. There are clear norms that make sure rethinking happens. The question of where it comes from is something that I don't have good data on, which really ______ annoys me right now and I need to go ______ some. So stay tuned. But I mean, I can think of examples of both. One of the ________ that that I've spent probably too much time thinking about now. Is the, you know, the _____ Seinfeld Larry David example from ________. And one of the most interesting things that I learned from ________ that _____________ was that they were both ruthless free thinkers, but they applied it to their own work, probably even more so than they did to each other's work. And so one would not even bring a script or a joke to the other until he had thought it was, you know, really good. Mm hmm. And I can see how those _____ of norms could be really effective in partnerships. I've also seen examples, though, where, you know, one ______ is basically the kind of a creative dreamer and the other person is the really critical _________. And so, you know, the first person does the thinking, the second does the rethinking, and then it ends up being kind of this beautiful symphony. Mm hmm. I imagine, J.J. , you've seen a lot of this in in the world of Hollywood. Is there is there one or the other that you think is more common or more effective? And are there are there are people who do more of the ________ versus rethinking in your collaborations? Well, obviously, I think, you know, everyone is different. And I know I have worked with people who who go to a place and not that they're stubborn about where they go, but they arrive at an answer very, very quickly. And that's sort of their thing and that they're perhaps a bit _________ to be as flexible or rethink things. Then, you know, I've worked people like, for example, with Matt Reeves, with whom I did ________, and we did the Cloverfield movie together. And he's someone who you know, and I've known him since we were kids. And he's always rethinking. And I find that I'm maybe more, you know, someone who would want to try something and put it out there and sort of commit to it for now and sort of see where it goes. And Matt. To his great ______, and it's one of the reasons I love _______ with him, is he's someone who really wants to stop and examine and consider and __________ it and look at it from all sides and see if there's a better way. And can it go deeper and can it be, you know, can it be more _________? And I think that that, you know, part of that is probably, you know, less about thinking and rethinking and more about my being more impatient. And when we work together, we had our offices right next to each other. And in fact, our _______ were in the location where they actually filmed the office, the show, the pilot for the American Office Show. Oh, and weirdly, his office in my office were Matt's office with Michael Scott's office. And my office was the the conference room, which years later, when I went and directed an episode of The Office, I was like, why do I know this place? And then I realized, oh, my God, it's literally based on our old offices. But Matt, we had a little little sign in between is a picture of the two of us in between both of our offices. And someone had put up ______ notes over each of us and _________ it, said, how do we make it more emotional and __________ lives, how to make it funnier? And there is a sort of like, you know, clearly everyone brings their whatever their interest is, whatever their their point of view is to the table. And even though sometimes it can be frustrating when someone says, well, wait a minute, let's reconsider this, you know, it's almost always a better thing because there's nothing wrong with kicking the tires and interrogating something. But the best thing and this is what I found, you know, recently I co-wrote a _____ with a writer _____ Latoya Morgan, and she's a _________ ______. She's a _____ woman who brings a point of view that is clearly going to be a life experience, very different from mine. And when I bring up an idea and she says, you know, hold on, let's talk about this or that or vice versa, I feel like we almost __________ end up in a place where there's something that we are both, like, beaming about that we wouldn't have arrived at had it just been one of us in that room. And in all __________, you know , someone who looked like us, you know, either just me or just her. So I feel like there's a lot of talk of how diversity is good and how you say in your book, diversity is good but hard. But, you know, I have personally felt like, you know, working with people who don't look like you, especially when they are, you know, smart and freethinkers. It's incredible how much better the ____________ is, how much richer it is, and I think how much better the work ends up being. And I'm grateful for any time I work with someone, whether it's Matt, Latoya, I can name a huge list of people who are really willing to rethink things that I might just assume need to stay. And the only caveat I would say here is that I can also think of times when there were paths we were on and the ability to ______ it up and rethink something might not have been for the best. Yeah, this is one of the hardest questions that I really wrestled with while writing the book and I'm still grappling with now, which is how much rethinking is too much and how do I know whether when I've started rethinking something, I should actually change my mind or go back to my original first answer and the only coherent place that I've landed on this so far as to say, well, if this is a curve and there's an optimal amount of rethinking, I think most of us don't do enough of it. _____ or disagree? You're asking me, yeah, yeah, it's a question, do you agree or disagree? You know, my guess is I would agree. Got it. I have to take a sidebar here, JJ, because you mentioned the ______. This is work life. I read once that you did not like the office when it premiered in the U.S. and that you weren't even a fan of the entire first season. Is it true? And what led you to rethink that view? I think that what I felt was when I first watched it, because I became a huge fan, which is why I _______ out to them, essentially _______ them to hire me as a ________. I was such a fan of the original and in fact, to a degree that I reached out to Ricky Gervais and wrote a part for him in Alias. And I was such a fan of that show and the specificity of it that it felt. For me, I remember when I first saw it, I thought, oh, no, like it didn't ______ how good everyone was because they were _____. It felt like it was somehow _________ that it was redoing exactly the same thing in essentially the same time period, you know, putting it through the American TV mill. And then you realize, oh, they're doing it perfectly. And it's it's exactly what it should be. And it's its own thing. It was the quality of the show that that won me over. OK, next question. I'm sure you hate getting asked about Star Wars in particular, because it might what might be the most beloved universe ever created a minimum. It's got a lot of passionate fans. And yeah, I loved The Force _______. I love the rise of Skywalker. I especially love the points where you _________ some moments and characters. And I wanted to ask you about one specific one, which is I think my biggest moment of shock in the new trilogy was when Emperor Palpatine came back to life because I thought he'd been dead since 1983. And so I was _________ how you went about rethinking his ______. Well, that was something that came in and out and then back in again. But that idea was something that that felt like it was _______ there, set up in the prequels. And when we were looking at the story, the idea of a character who is desperate to find immortality and it felt like it was sitting there and that it was a set up potential set up. And I kept imagining it as something that could work. You know, if I'm a kid ________ all nine movies years from now, it felt like something that was a possible setup to be ________ later. I will say that it's something that I loved the possibility of it and the _______ of it. And it was one of, you know, so many things that we were rethinking and trying to find ways to sort of fit the ______ of the puzzle together. And I know that for some people, it they clicked in and it worked and was fun and __________. And for other people it was, you know, understandably ___________ and sacrilege and stupid and wrong. The _________ were were vast, but it was also something that was, you know, in various moments felt like it was the right move. I imagine that happens a lot to that. You you rethink a classic world or _____, whether it's Star Wars or Star Trek or even characters that we've ______ in love with. Right. I still feel like, you know, with Lost in particular, I still feel like, you know, Sawyer and Sayid and Kate and some of the others are long lost friends. How often do you rethink the stories you've told versus once you put it out into the world, you're you're _____ with the creative choices you've made, regardless of the feedback? Well, all I see when I work on something is the thing that we could have and should have done to make this better or that different. The __________ doesn't stop because it's it's out there. And I do think that one of the enemies of certainly movies and in some _____ TV is the sort of, you know, the _________ release date where the time that one normally should have to rethink doesn't _____. And it's very difficult to be. In a healthy way, rethinking when you are under the gun, impractical material and often very expensive ways. For example, when Damon and I _______ working on Lost, it was a very particular, you know, crazy ticking clock where the head of ABC at the time, _____ Braun, ______ a show about people who survived a plane crash. And so in Damini, who had never met, we _____ that outline. It was in a week based on just pure instinct. And we went off and we shot this to our pilot that we were, you know, writing, casting, ________, doing post and everything in nine weeks. And it was a crazy ________ ______. Wow. And it ended up working as a pilot. And then _____ and Carlton Cuse wrote the series. But I, I feel like it's one of those lessons that not having an ending, it just makes it ______. I know it sounds so obvious and so easy, but when you take that leap of _____, when _______ King starts writing a novel, he gets to finish that novel and decide, does anyone need to see this? And I'm sure he's got drawers full of things that people have not read because he feels like it's not the thing. And one of the crazy things that this, you know, pandemic quarantine time has done for TV and for movies is it's given people time to write, not just a pilot or a _____ outline, but write ______ seasons of a series before it even goes, which, you know, you want to be flexible and you want to be able to cast a role and realize, oh, my God, we've got to do this with this character because we didn't _______ it or this thing isn't working the way I thought it would. But this time has allowed writers to, you know, write without the pressure of we have to be _______ this thing right now. We have to be location scouting. We have to be, you know, getting the all these episodes edited and posted and ready for _________. And I think that it in no way do I feel like, oh, great, we had this time to do this. You know, I'd much rather life be normal and covid not exist. But I will say that if there is any kind of ________ benefit to this time, it's that suddenly release dates and broadcast dates are not being, you know, as ____________ announced. And time is available for some writers to be able to actually work on the stories in a more, you know, I think _____ pace. And that is no small thing. Is there creative ________ that you've rethought during the past year? If you had said to me that we could be breaking stories without ever being in the same room together, I would have thought it was probably impossible, if not wildly unlikely. And I think that online, not just the Zoom's, but also the sort of online __________ apps that exist that allow people to collaborate remotely has, I think, probably __________ changed the way stories, at least on television and _______ rooms, will be broken. Wow. Does that does that mean in writers _____ won't always be ________ even after the pandemic? They definitely will. But I think the that someone can now be part of it who might not be in town. I think that that the norm will always seem to be better to be together. But there's something great about the _____ and the, you know, the access that you have from anywhere. So I just think that that that's something that, you know, clearly there will be infinitely fewer business trips to have meetings that could now clearly be done on Zoome. Will people go back to it? You know, the way we were before? More than not, I believe they will, but. This is now accelerated the ________ that this is a valid and really productive way to work. I've never said those words. I've never said this before. We're not going to hold you accountable. Thank you. Next question from one magician to another. How does all the time you've spent ________ magic tricks and __________ them affect your job? Has it _______ over into your work life in any way? I think the thing about magic, as much as some might see it as the geekiest sort of, you know, silliest thing to me, it's incredibly powerful. We had a magician in our office and this was like two years ago, and he was in my office, just the two of us. And he did a few tricks and he did one that literally made me, as a 50 year old man, think to myself in my head, he might be magical, like, you know, because I know how magic tricks are done. I know how a lot of I know bunch of gimmicks. I know a bunch of tricks. He did something where I was like, I wonder if he's maybe magical. Does he have? And my whole point is the fact that someone who's a half a century old can still have a ______ of thinking. There might be powers beyond that, which I know is so ________. And the the wow and the gasping and the amazement that any audience has, big or small, it's there's something about the the sense of possibility that the world is more than it seems and that we want to see things that we can't imagine and that we don't expect. And so I feel like that is a natural. ______ to telling a story, and I just think that whether it's writing a a book or making a show or a _____, it's all a bit of a magic trick. You are so much more comfortable not knowing than I am. I ___________ want to ______. I have to figure out the secret, but then you can never see the trick again. You can admire the the skills and the ______ of the _________ who executed it, right? Yes . OK, next favorite character from the office. It has to be _______ Scott, not because just because I think he is the hub of the _____. And so everyone is kind of it feels like they're all kind of in his _____, to mix metaphors. So interesting. He wasn't even in my top five. I love that. And then can I ask you the same question about Star Wars? I think my ________ my favorite _________ in in Star Wars was Han. Just because I mean, it's very hard to think of a better scene in a movie ever than when you meet Han Solo and then in Empire _______ Back. I mean, like there's just there are some of the greatest, truest ______ than life, but completely _________ and grounded moments. And, you know, when we got to shoot in Force Awakens, you know, ________ and Chewie coming into the, you know, the Falcon and saying, you know, we're home because it just there was something so crazy about it. And I feel super lucky to have, you know, been part of that. I had tears in my eyes when when Nonintuitive had their reunion. It just felt like we just couldn't wait to show it to ______ because it just felt like, oh, my God, you should see this. It's just so cool having them back on the ship. It was a _________ moment. I'd love to talk to you about as a Red Sox fan, the Red Sox versus Yankees. And you have this great _______ about just how far fans of these teams are willing to go to torture the opposing team. And what you tried, what didn't work and what finally seemed to break the ice of having them sort of find the humanity in each other. So my question to you is, what was what _________ you in your ________ to build those bridges between those two fan bases ? And what were your findings? In summary , I'm so glad that _________. You know, I was I was when thinking about the prejudice that so many people hold toward other groups, I was looking for a _______ where we could _____ it, where the actual stakes are minimal, but the emotional stakes feel very high. And sports fan allegiances, it just it felt like the perfect place to go. I mean, a few _____ ago, I got to know an amazing woman in her 70s who helps Holocaust survivors. And one day she mentioned that she went to Ohio State. And my first reaction was, yuck. Yeah, I'm a ________ Wolverine. We're rivals, but who _____ where she went to ______ half a _______ ago? Yeah, it just bothered me at a fundamental level. And so I decided, you know, like any self __________ social scientist, I should study that. And so Tim and I and all these experiments with the Yankees and Red Sox fans, which was such an easy rivalry to choose. And I think my my biggest surprise was that two of the _____ that were supposed to work _____ on all the existing science, didn't you know one of those was was just creating a common identity as baseball fans? And, you know, people would say, yeah, you know, I would help a _______ fan if they were in an emergency. But otherwise, you know, they're rooting for an evil team. So no, thank you. And then the other one was to to try to ________ the individual fan, where _________ what happened was people said, all right, you know what? There's this one Yankees fan who's OK, but he's not like the other ones. And I still hate all the rest of them. So what ultimately ended up working and in a way that I was I was surprised by the power of it actually was saying, look, you know, maybe we just need to get people to rethink how they became fans in the first _____. So imagine if you had grown up in New York. Would you possibly root for the now you're probably root for the Mets. But the point is, you might not be a Red Sox fan. I'm not _____. Exactly. I'm joking. I'm joking. All my Mets fans, friends, I'm joking. I don't know if you are, but go on. I'm joking anyway. I know I keep going, please. Well, no. So I thought this idea of just, you know, considering the ___________ that we could hold different views all of a sudden, it it just ____________ a lot of the stereotypes and prejudices that people hold. And so, as you know, we ran these really entertaining ___________ where we gave people a chance to to punish fans of the opposing team by ______ them _____ spicy hot _____ or by giving them really difficult math problems, which were actually going to hurt their payment for participating in the study. And we found that, lo and behold, after we just got fans to think about how they might root for a different team if they had been born in a different city, that was enough to get them to show less animosity toward fans of the opposing team, which I thought was amazing. And this did not make it into the book. But we just finished a ______ of experiments with with gun control and gun rights advocates where we found that the same process worked for them. That if we got somebody who is extremely concerned about about gun safety, to imagine having been born in a _______ ______, they actually were less nasty than to somebody on the other side of the aisle. So I think there might be something to this. Fantastic. So I can't thank you enough for talking to me on your show about you, you should do the the goodbye because it's your show. But I just I wanted to thank you for the the _____ and opportunity. Well, I can't thank you enough for ______. I'm so grateful that you read the book. You liked it that you're willing to talk about it. It's a huge gift to me and our listeners. And I loved getting a little bit inside of your mind and your work life. And most importantly, the work you do has has always been just a huge source of inspiration to me. But over the past year, you have been a source of light and hope and entertainment and creative ___________ . And I just want to thank you for for everything that you do to entertain us and to get us to rethink so many of the things that we think we know. Holy crap. That was unbelievable. Way too generous, but your your words are incredibly appreciated. And and again, thank you for this amazing book and your kind _____. WorkLife is hosted by me, Adam Grant. Our team includes Colin Helmes, Greg Achen , Dan O'Donnell, Constanza Guardo, ______ DeLuna, Grace Rubenstein, Michelle Quint, Angela Chang and Anna _____. This episode was ________ by Jessica Glaser and supported by Viking Penguin. Think again. The _____ of knowing what you don't know is available in whatever format you like _____, electronic stone, tablet or audio narrated by me.

Solution


  1. original
  2. resonated
  3. century
  4. harrison
  5. forming
  6. years
  7. extra
  8. tetlock
  9. pieces
  10. fairy
  11. reluctant
  12. immediately
  13. rethought
  14. schools
  15. writers
  16. switch
  17. interview
  18. conversation
  19. directed
  20. pilot
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  23. felin
  24. movie
  25. tested
  26. strikes
  27. knowing
  28. learn
  29. template
  30. words
  31. information
  32. uncontrollable
  33. tribe
  34. profound
  35. truth
  36. control
  37. infuriating
  38. stand
  39. learning
  40. feeling
  41. reached
  42. beautiful
  43. kindly
  44. beliefs
  45. demise
  46. crunched
  47. director
  48. modes
  49. writer
  50. desperate
  51. person
  52. persuasive
  53. happy
  54. likelihood
  55. worth
  56. named
  57. thinking
  58. sauce
  59. damon
  60. mildly
  61. declarative
  62. routine
  63. growing
  64. watching
  65. keeping
  66. observed
  67. michigan
  68. fallen
  69. workplaces
  70. print
  71. sacrilege
  72. promise
  73. practice
  74. attempts
  75. studying
  76. moment
  77. reminds
  78. examined
  79. period
  80. jerry
  81. steps
  82. weapon
  83. human
  84. trees
  85. gather
  86. comfort
  87. topic
  88. rough
  89. overconfidence
  90. respecting
  91. relevant
  92. assuming
  93. camera
  94. practices
  95. season
  96. surprised
  97. surprising
  98. wrote
  99. realize
  100. showing
  101. knowledgeable
  102. cases
  103. questions
  104. evaluator
  105. ground
  106. larger
  107. reactions
  108. podcast
  109. argument
  110. started
  111. casting
  112. present
  113. orbit
  114. produced
  115. stephen
  116. begging
  117. afraid
  118. creative
  119. giving
  120. juxtaposed
  121. people
  122. spilled
  123. charge
  124. profoundly
  125. chemistry
  126. exist
  127. drive
  128. seinfeld
  129. context
  130. share
  131. rewarded
  132. physical
  133. appealing
  134. hunting
  135. rethinking
  136. character
  137. kinds
  138. couple
  139. preview
  140. voice
  141. sisyphean
  142. thought
  143. comforts
  144. wonderful
  145. matter
  146. possibility
  147. wanted
  148. relearning
  149. credit
  150. aspect
  151. assumptions
  152. basically
  153. emotional
  154. world
  155. inspiration
  156. rooms
  157. offices
  158. faith
  159. story
  160. black
  161. spent
  162. sweet
  163. convinced
  164. global
  165. based
  166. joanne
  167. picking
  168. awakens
  169. partnerships
  170. shooting
  171. family
  172. point
  173. lloyd
  174. adjustments
  175. moments
  176. disproportionate
  177. destabilizes
  178. guess
  179. yankees
  180. sticky
  181. genius
  182. relatable
  183. reconsider
  184. systemic
  185. felicity
  186. working
  187. focus
  188. favorite
  189. harder
  190. announced
  191. answer
  192. airtight
  193. social
  194. assumption
  195. lives
  196. broadcast
  197. undermines
  198. michael
  199. whiteboard
  200. power
  201. wondering
  202. stories
  203. thinker
  204. performing
  205. study
  206. experiments
  207. prosecutors
  208. status
  209. office
  210. evidence
  211. center
  212. cares
  213. model
  214. appease
  215. crazy
  216. writing
  217. examples
  218. weakness
  219. collaboration
  220. humility
  221. overmatch
  222. agree
  223. coming
  224. invariably
  225. areas
  226. humanize
  227. level
  228. chapter
  229. followers
  230. honor
  231. finding
  232. great
  233. school
  234. place
  235. question
  236. times
  237. aggressively
  238. performer
  239. means
  240. spend
  241. sitting
  242. reexamine
  243. wheel
  244. communities
  245. reading

Original Text


Hey, work lifers, this is J.J. Abrams, we're trying something new on the podcast today, I am going to be conducting an interview on the show and my guest is Adam Grant. We're going be talking about his new book, Think Again Automatical. Oh, JJ, it's great to hear your voice, but this is my show. I don't know if it is. I can't just let you take my job and ask all the questions. I'm insisting on asking you some questions. Can you promise me that I can ask one Star Wars question? Yes, you can ask anything you want. You can ask. Fantastic. Jumping in here as host of my show in the off chance. You don't know who J.J. Abrams is. You absolutely know his work. He's directed, produced and written some of the most beloved films and shows of the last 30 years. If you love Lost alias Felicity, the more recent incarnations of Star Wars or Star Trek, you have to think as a bonus episode. While we're hard at work on Season four, J.J. kindly agreed to turn the microphone around and host me for a chat about my new book, Think Again The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know. It's a book about the science of rethinking our opinions, opening other people's minds and creating cultures of learning. It officially launches February 2nd, but I wanted to give you a sneak preview. So I sent JJ an early copy and told him he was in charge of our interview. Thanks to Viking Penguin, my publisher, for Think Again for supporting this episode. I have read this book and I just truly think again, your new book available now is so compelling and I just I'm thrilled to get to talk to you about it. I feel like you're my book fairy godfather . That's such a thing. That's my dream. Thank you. I've got to say that I had so many moments of kind of gasping when I read Think again, because you provided the kind of optimism that there is a way to find common ground, to find, to embrace nuance, to reexamine how we, you know, we go through the world. What motivated you to write the book? Well, there's a part of me that that thinks I was probably motivated to write this book by one of my best friends from growing up, Khan, who I remember this was in seventh grade here. We're in the middle of an argument, I think, during a commercial on Seinfeld. And he he hung up on me and I called him back and he said, Shut up, Adam, I won't talk to you until you admit you're wrong. And that was sort of a it really it was a moment that stuck with me. I didn't have the language for it at the time, but I spent a lot of time afterward thinking, why is it so important to me to be right? And, you know, why do I have such a hard time admitting when I'm not? And that, you know, I think I was I was sort of a defining moment. And then, you know, much later I feel like my job as an organizational psychologist is, you know, is to really think again about how we work , how we lead, how we live, and to motivate other people to do that, too. And my most frustrating experiences as an author, as a speaker, as a researcher, as a teacher, as a consultant are always when people are not willing to rethink assumptions that I think they ought to be questioning. And so, you know, just over the past few years, the number of conversations I've had with with founders and CEOs where I you know, I give them the best evidence I have available. And they say, well, that's that's not how we do things around here or that's not the way I've always done things. All right. And I just I just want to come back to them and say, you know, Blockbuster, BlackBerry, Kodak, Sears, you know what? You should definitely not rethink anything in your vision, strategy or business model. And so I guess, J.J. , when you know, when I have both personal and professional experiences that drive me insane on the same topic, I feel like there might be a problem with tackling or a question worth writing about. Hmm. That's great. Answered in reading the book. It made me wonder if people's not bandwidth, but their comfort level is so low that there are people finding comfort in belief systems. And that's the thing that they can rely on because there's so little to rely on. And and so rethinking is a threat to one of the few comforts left. That's such an interesting question, I don't know is my first thought, my second thought is it reminds me of some research that I loved by sociologists that started in the 70s. They did. This study is where they were interested in the effects of being micromanaged at work and not just how we thought about our jobs, but how we behaved in the rest of our lives. And they found that if you had a really controlling boss, that you actually became more authoritarian as a parent with your children, which was just kind of a stunning spillover for me to, you know, to think that the way you get treated at work might affect the way that you raise your children who just never would have occurred to me. And I think that body of research and a whole bunch of other studies that followed kind of that they made me start to think about this basic truth, that when we lack control in one domain of our lives, we become motivated to seek it and try to regain it in other parts of our lives. And I think, you know, especially in the wake of this pandemic and a global recession where we're facing a lot of threats to control right now. And I wonder if if part of what people are doing is they're grasping at the things they do have control over. And one of the things we all have control over is what we believe. And so, you know, holding fast to the things that I think are true, they make that sort of makes the world feel more predictable, less uncertain. It also gives me a sense of belonging with whoever my tribe is. Right. It validates my worldview. And I've even wondered if, you know, if that's part of why the the George Floyd protests, you know, really rose up when they did. I feel like before the pandemic, people felt like, you know, there's nothing that I personally can do to fight systemic racism, whereas, you know, juxtaposed against a global disease like covid, which I really can't fight. Well, you know what? I could I could show up in protest. And so I guess there's there's something about both holding fast to your beliefs that helps render an uncontrollable world more controllable. But also, there's something about being in an extremely uncontrollable world that can lead you to think again about where you do have some control areas where you can make a difference. And so I wonder if that cuts both ways. Hmmm, that's interesting, I wanted to ask you about the value of humility, because it seems like. Humility is also at the center of what allows for someone to. Pursue a truth or information or a point of view that might not be theirs, but I think so many of us take a more defensive posture and our are more closed off and declarative about things that we think we know. And I just wanted to ask you kind of what role you feel humility plays and why it might not be such a given that the actual value of it is the truth and is enlightenment and is wisdom and why that doesn't seem so appealing in the moment. Yeah, interesting. So if pride is what fuels overconfidence, I think humility is what gives us the freedom and the flexibility to rethink the opinions and assumptions we should be questioning. And I think that part of the problem is that we live in a culture where people are rewarded for being the smartest person in the room and they learn to wield their knowledge and expertise like a weapon, as opposed to treating it as a resource to share. And so, you know, I think in most workplaces, in many schools and frankly, in too many families and communities, too, you know, the currency of status is knowing more than everybody else. And so knowing that, you know, admitting what you don't know, questioning yourself, showing, you know, any hint of uncertainty is like admitting weakness and setting yourself up for defeat in battle. And obviously, I think that's a problem. And I think that maybe the first way to get people past that fear is we need people in positions of power to model it. Right. We know that if you've been validated by your power or your status or your authority, that people are much more comfortable letting you say you don't know. There's evidence, for example, that when experts say, I'm not sure or I don't know, they actually become more persuasive, in part because we respect their humility and in part because we're surprised that we actually pay more attention to the substance of their argument, which, you know, is likely to be persuasive if they are knowledgeable. So I guess what I want to do is I want to let people know that humility is a potential source of strength, not just a sign of weakness. And I don't I don't entirely know how to get people there. And I want to turn this around on you because I feel like this is one of the the themes that that really cuts through a lot of your work is every time I watch a show or a movie that was directed or produced by you, I know it's going to lead me to question an assumption. And it might be an assumption I've held for a long time. And I'm curious about is this something you do intentionally and how do you get your audiences to confront that kind of humility? Well, thanks for saying so. I feel like the the way into a story for me is usually finding a character who is vulnerable, who is in a place where they're out of their depth and they're desperate for something. And I think that desperation is like the greatest motivator. And it also it forces you as a storyteller to know what a character's desperate for and therefore what you are either afraid of or hopeful for and ideally both the idea of desperation as a motivator. I think that's incredibly powerful. And it's something that that not only strikes me as relevant to, you know, to thinking about characters in a story, but also to understanding the people that I work with and the people that I love. And I'm wondering is, is that a lens that you apply? And I guess if you turn it inward a little bit, when you've achieved the level of success that you have, how do you stay desperate to rethink some of the stories that you tell? Well, I have to do is go on Twitter. I feel like, you know, I'm always desperate to do something, to tell a story that that moves people. And sometimes I'm more successful than others. And, you know, I never go into anything with a kind of template for what it should or shouldn't be. I feel like I've learned a ton of lessons along the way. And by the way, I always feel like we're carrying, you know, whatever a thousand lessons with us that we all need to, you know, remember at all times. But we can only really carry 900 of them. And we're constantly dropping lessons and picking up the ones that we've dropped in by picking those up. We've dropped some other ones and we keep relearning the same thing. So I think, you know, rethinking is really important and relearning is a weird Sisyphean inevitability that I don't think we can avoid. But I feel like, you know, the drive to do. What I do like I'm guessing the drive for you to do what you do, you do it because you feel compelled to share a point of view, an idea, a feeling, an insight, a question, something you might not even understand the answer to. And you just feel compelled to do it. And I think I start everything desperately , and I think they probably all end that way, too. I love that. I want to ask you, because your book is all about rethinking. I was just curious, do you feel like there is a fundamental barrier to rethinking and if so, what it is and I do have a follow up. Yeah, I think so. So, yeah, I feel like one of the things that I've rethought twice now as I've been writing books is, you know, I wrote my first book, Give and Take with with a whole framework to organize the world in terms of givers, takers and matters. And then I didn't want to be constrained by a framework like that when I wrote originals and I felt like I overcorrected and there wasn't enough connective tissue between the different chapters. I felt like I had a lot of interesting trees, but the forest was not clear enough. And so I decided when I was writing Think again that I was going to be open to finding an overarching framework, but I was not going to be attached to it. And that that felt like the sweet spot. And about halfway through the writing, it hit me and I had to rewrite the book from scratch. The framework was my my colleague, Phil Tetlock, where he observed that whatever your job or career is, that you spend a disproportionate amount of your time thinking like certain professions. He said, look, you know, there are moments when we think like preachers, prosecutors and politicians. And I think that that all three of these mindsets can stand in the way of rethinking, because when you're preaching, you're already convinced that you found the truth. And so you don't need to question any of your assumptions when you're prosecuting. You are trying to win your case. That means the other side is wrong. And so you've got to get them to do all the rethinking, but you get to stand still. And when you're thinking more like a politician, you're basically trying to cater to your audience and campaign for their approval or get their likes or their votes. And so you may be doing a little bit of flexing in the way that you present, but you're not rethinking your underlying beliefs. Right. You're just you're just trying to appease your constituents. And I think we spend way too much time thinking in these modes. I know, you know, as somebody who's been called a logic bully once or twice, maybe seven times at this point, by my count, I spend too much time in prosecutor mode. And when I think that somebody is selling snake oil or trying to, you know, indoctrinate their followers into some kind of idea cult, I feel like it's my job to debunk those myths and bring the better evidence to the table. And the problem is then that I get too close minded. And so I'm trying to get out of prosecutor mode and spend more time thinking like a scientist, which is something I think we could all learn to do better. It's funny, in the book, you say how I think the first time you were called The Logic Bully, it actually was something that you liked, that at first it appealed to you. I was proud. I thought, yeah, that's my job as a social scientist. I want to decimate your bad arguments with rigorous evidence and airtight logic. And I'm good. And then, yeah, I didn't like the bully part so much as I thought about it more. Given that, what are some of your favorite practices for questioning your own assumptions and for rethinking yourself? I think the first one for me is just the basic idea of thinking like a scientist to say that, you know, what scientists do is instead of forming beliefs, they actually form hypotheses. And so instead of having an opinion that set in stone, that means, OK, this is a hunch, how would I go and tested? And, you know, I don't think that we have to always operate like we're in a lab. Right, with a bunch of test tubes. But I do think that we should all be running experiments in our lives. So during the pandemic, for example, I have instead of assuming there's a routine that's going to work for me, I've run experiments to say, OK, what if I shift my creative brainstorming from the morning to the night? What does that do, you know, to to the number of original ideas that I generate? What if I turn my camera off during a zoo meeting? Do I actually have, you know, a more a more reflective, more thoughtful discussion? And all of those you know, there's those little changes and adjustments that we make. We could think about them as experiments and then we could say, OK, well, you know what what information what data do I need in order to find out if that was a successful or failed experiment? And I I think that's a huge step. And I guess the other thing I would I would just put on the table is when I was writing the book again, I made a list of all the things that I know I'm completely ignorant about. And my goal was was actually not to reduce the list, it was to expand the list. Mm hmm. Because I feel like the more I know about what I don't know, the more curious I am and the more I'm going to learn from people who are actually are knowledgeable in those areas. So, you know, my list, I think it started out I immediately said I know nothing about music. I don't understand financial markets. I'm clueless about chemistry. And, you know, the list just kept growing from there. And I've actually been just keeping that list. I have a file on my desktop and my goal is to add something new to it every week. And if I stay clear about what I don't know, then I hope I'm going to stay more humble, more curious mindset. That's great. When I was reading, I think, again, it was occurring to me, you know, that you tell such great stories, including like the story of the BlackBerry company and, you know, Mike's inability to rethink the way perhaps he could have and what might have been. And I, too, was a huge fan of that keyboard. The question I had is, how do you find partnerships where there is a thinker and then a thinker, or is it always or typically whether it's one or two or more people that are able to rethink and think, oh, that's such a cool question. I think my ideal partnership is one where. There are clear norms that make sure rethinking happens. The question of where it comes from is something that I don't have good data on, which really mildly annoys me right now and I need to go gather some. So stay tuned. But I mean, I can think of examples of both. One of the examples that that I've spent probably too much time thinking about now. Is the, you know, the Jerry Seinfeld Larry David example from Seinfeld. And one of the most interesting things that I learned from studying that collaboration was that they were both ruthless free thinkers, but they applied it to their own work, probably even more so than they did to each other's work. And so one would not even bring a script or a joke to the other until he had thought it was, you know, really good. Mm hmm. And I can see how those kinds of norms could be really effective in partnerships. I've also seen examples, though, where, you know, one person is basically the kind of a creative dreamer and the other person is the really critical evaluator. And so, you know, the first person does the thinking, the second does the rethinking, and then it ends up being kind of this beautiful symphony. Mm hmm. I imagine, J.J. , you've seen a lot of this in in the world of Hollywood. Is there is there one or the other that you think is more common or more effective? And are there are there are people who do more of the thinking versus rethinking in your collaborations? Well, obviously, I think, you know, everyone is different. And I know I have worked with people who who go to a place and not that they're stubborn about where they go, but they arrive at an answer very, very quickly. And that's sort of their thing and that they're perhaps a bit reluctant to be as flexible or rethink things. Then, you know, I've worked people like, for example, with Matt Reeves, with whom I did Felicity, and we did the Cloverfield movie together. And he's someone who you know, and I've known him since we were kids. And he's always rethinking. And I find that I'm maybe more, you know, someone who would want to try something and put it out there and sort of commit to it for now and sort of see where it goes. And Matt. To his great credit, and it's one of the reasons I love working with him, is he's someone who really wants to stop and examine and consider and reconsider it and look at it from all sides and see if there's a better way. And can it go deeper and can it be, you know, can it be more emotional? And I think that that, you know, part of that is probably, you know, less about thinking and rethinking and more about my being more impatient. And when we work together, we had our offices right next to each other. And in fact, our offices were in the location where they actually filmed the office, the show, the pilot for the American Office Show. Oh, and weirdly, his office in my office were Matt's office with Michael Scott's office. And my office was the the conference room, which years later, when I went and directed an episode of The Office, I was like, why do I know this place? And then I realized, oh, my God, it's literally based on our old offices. But Matt, we had a little little sign in between is a picture of the two of us in between both of our offices. And someone had put up sticky notes over each of us and overmatch it, said, how do we make it more emotional and undermines lives, how to make it funnier? And there is a sort of like, you know, clearly everyone brings their whatever their interest is, whatever their their point of view is to the table. And even though sometimes it can be frustrating when someone says, well, wait a minute, let's reconsider this, you know, it's almost always a better thing because there's nothing wrong with kicking the tires and interrogating something. But the best thing and this is what I found, you know, recently I co-wrote a pilot with a writer named Latoya Morgan, and she's a wonderful writer. She's a black woman who brings a point of view that is clearly going to be a life experience, very different from mine. And when I bring up an idea and she says, you know, hold on, let's talk about this or that or vice versa, I feel like we almost invariably end up in a place where there's something that we are both, like, beaming about that we wouldn't have arrived at had it just been one of us in that room. And in all likelihood, you know , someone who looked like us, you know, either just me or just her. So I feel like there's a lot of talk of how diversity is good and how you say in your book, diversity is good but hard. But, you know, I have personally felt like, you know, working with people who don't look like you, especially when they are, you know, smart and freethinkers. It's incredible how much better the conversation is, how much richer it is, and I think how much better the work ends up being. And I'm grateful for any time I work with someone, whether it's Matt, Latoya, I can name a huge list of people who are really willing to rethink things that I might just assume need to stay. And the only caveat I would say here is that I can also think of times when there were paths we were on and the ability to switch it up and rethink something might not have been for the best. Yeah, this is one of the hardest questions that I really wrestled with while writing the book and I'm still grappling with now, which is how much rethinking is too much and how do I know whether when I've started rethinking something, I should actually change my mind or go back to my original first answer and the only coherent place that I've landed on this so far as to say, well, if this is a curve and there's an optimal amount of rethinking, I think most of us don't do enough of it. Agree or disagree? You're asking me, yeah, yeah, it's a question, do you agree or disagree? You know, my guess is I would agree. Got it. I have to take a sidebar here, JJ, because you mentioned the office. This is work life. I read once that you did not like the office when it premiered in the U.S. and that you weren't even a fan of the entire first season. Is it true? And what led you to rethink that view? I think that what I felt was when I first watched it, because I became a huge fan, which is why I reached out to them, essentially begging them to hire me as a director. I was such a fan of the original and in fact, to a degree that I reached out to Ricky Gervais and wrote a part for him in Alias. And I was such a fan of that show and the specificity of it that it felt. For me, I remember when I first saw it, I thought, oh, no, like it didn't matter how good everyone was because they were great. It felt like it was somehow sacrilege that it was redoing exactly the same thing in essentially the same time period, you know, putting it through the American TV mill. And then you realize, oh, they're doing it perfectly. And it's it's exactly what it should be. And it's its own thing. It was the quality of the show that that won me over. OK, next question. I'm sure you hate getting asked about Star Wars in particular, because it might what might be the most beloved universe ever created a minimum. It's got a lot of passionate fans. And yeah, I loved The Force Awakens. I love the rise of Skywalker. I especially love the points where you rethought some moments and characters. And I wanted to ask you about one specific one, which is I think my biggest moment of shock in the new trilogy was when Emperor Palpatine came back to life because I thought he'd been dead since 1983. And so I was wondering how you went about rethinking his demise. Well, that was something that came in and out and then back in again. But that idea was something that that felt like it was sitting there, set up in the prequels. And when we were looking at the story, the idea of a character who is desperate to find immortality and it felt like it was sitting there and that it was a set up potential set up. And I kept imagining it as something that could work. You know, if I'm a kid watching all nine movies years from now, it felt like something that was a possible setup to be examined later. I will say that it's something that I loved the possibility of it and the promise of it. And it was one of, you know, so many things that we were rethinking and trying to find ways to sort of fit the pieces of the puzzle together. And I know that for some people, it they clicked in and it worked and was fun and surprising. And for other people it was, you know, understandably infuriating and sacrilege and stupid and wrong. The reactions were were vast, but it was also something that was, you know, in various moments felt like it was the right move. I imagine that happens a lot to that. You you rethink a classic world or story, whether it's Star Wars or Star Trek or even characters that we've fallen in love with. Right. I still feel like, you know, with Lost in particular, I still feel like, you know, Sawyer and Sayid and Kate and some of the others are long lost friends. How often do you rethink the stories you've told versus once you put it out into the world, you're you're happy with the creative choices you've made, regardless of the feedback? Well, all I see when I work on something is the thing that we could have and should have done to make this better or that different. The rethinking doesn't stop because it's it's out there. And I do think that one of the enemies of certainly movies and in some cases TV is the sort of, you know, the announced release date where the time that one normally should have to rethink doesn't exist. And it's very difficult to be. In a healthy way, rethinking when you are under the gun, impractical material and often very expensive ways. For example, when Damon and I started working on Lost, it was a very particular, you know, crazy ticking clock where the head of ABC at the time, Lloyd Braun, wanted a show about people who survived a plane crash. And so in Damini, who had never met, we wrote that outline. It was in a week based on just pure instinct. And we went off and we shot this to our pilot that we were, you know, writing, casting, shooting, doing post and everything in nine weeks. And it was a crazy crunched period. Wow. And it ended up working as a pilot. And then Damon and Carlton Cuse wrote the series. But I, I feel like it's one of those lessons that not having an ending, it just makes it harder. I know it sounds so obvious and so easy, but when you take that leap of faith, when Stephen King starts writing a novel, he gets to finish that novel and decide, does anyone need to see this? And I'm sure he's got drawers full of things that people have not read because he feels like it's not the thing. And one of the crazy things that this, you know, pandemic quarantine time has done for TV and for movies is it's given people time to write, not just a pilot or a rough outline, but write entire seasons of a series before it even goes, which, you know, you want to be flexible and you want to be able to cast a role and realize, oh, my God, we've got to do this with this character because we didn't realize it or this thing isn't working the way I thought it would. But this time has allowed writers to, you know, write without the pressure of we have to be casting this thing right now. We have to be location scouting. We have to be, you know, getting the all these episodes edited and posted and ready for broadcast. And I think that it in no way do I feel like, oh, great, we had this time to do this. You know, I'd much rather life be normal and covid not exist. But I will say that if there is any kind of creative benefit to this time, it's that suddenly release dates and broadcast dates are not being, you know, as aggressively announced. And time is available for some writers to be able to actually work on the stories in a more, you know, I think human pace. And that is no small thing. Is there creative practice that you've rethought during the past year? If you had said to me that we could be breaking stories without ever being in the same room together, I would have thought it was probably impossible, if not wildly unlikely. And I think that online, not just the Zoom's, but also the sort of online whiteboard apps that exist that allow people to collaborate remotely has, I think, probably profoundly changed the way stories, at least on television and writers rooms, will be broken. Wow. Does that does that mean in writers rooms won't always be physical even after the pandemic? They definitely will. But I think the that someone can now be part of it who might not be in town. I think that that the norm will always seem to be better to be together. But there's something great about the focus and the, you know, the access that you have from anywhere. So I just think that that that's something that, you know, clearly there will be infinitely fewer business trips to have meetings that could now clearly be done on Zoome. Will people go back to it? You know, the way we were before? More than not, I believe they will, but. This is now accelerated the evidence that this is a valid and really productive way to work. I've never said those words. I've never said this before. We're not going to hold you accountable. Thank you. Next question from one magician to another. How does all the time you've spent learning magic tricks and performing them affect your job? Has it spilled over into your work life in any way? I think the thing about magic, as much as some might see it as the geekiest sort of, you know, silliest thing to me, it's incredibly powerful. We had a magician in our office and this was like two years ago, and he was in my office, just the two of us. And he did a few tricks and he did one that literally made me, as a 50 year old man, think to myself in my head, he might be magical, like, you know, because I know how magic tricks are done. I know how a lot of I know bunch of gimmicks. I know a bunch of tricks. He did something where I was like, I wonder if he's maybe magical. Does he have? And my whole point is the fact that someone who's a half a century old can still have a moment of thinking. There might be powers beyond that, which I know is so profound. And the the wow and the gasping and the amazement that any audience has, big or small, it's there's something about the the sense of possibility that the world is more than it seems and that we want to see things that we can't imagine and that we don't expect. And so I feel like that is a natural. Aspect to telling a story, and I just think that whether it's writing a a book or making a show or a movie, it's all a bit of a magic trick. You are so much more comfortable not knowing than I am. I immediately want to answer. I have to figure out the secret, but then you can never see the trick again. You can admire the the skills and the genius of the performer who executed it, right? Yes . OK, next favorite character from the office. It has to be Michael Scott, not because just because I think he is the hub of the wheel. And so everyone is kind of it feels like they're all kind of in his orbit, to mix metaphors. So interesting. He wasn't even in my top five. I love that. And then can I ask you the same question about Star Wars? I think my favorite my favorite character in in Star Wars was Han. Just because I mean, it's very hard to think of a better scene in a movie ever than when you meet Han Solo and then in Empire Strikes Back. I mean, like there's just there are some of the greatest, truest larger than life, but completely relatable and grounded moments. And, you know, when we got to shoot in Force Awakens, you know, Harrison and Chewie coming into the, you know, the Falcon and saying, you know, we're home because it just there was something so crazy about it. And I feel super lucky to have, you know, been part of that. I had tears in my eyes when when Nonintuitive had their reunion. It just felt like we just couldn't wait to show it to people because it just felt like, oh, my God, you should see this. It's just so cool having them back on the ship. It was a beautiful moment. I'd love to talk to you about as a Red Sox fan, the Red Sox versus Yankees. And you have this great chapter about just how far fans of these teams are willing to go to torture the opposing team. And what you tried, what didn't work and what finally seemed to break the ice of having them sort of find the humanity in each other. So my question to you is, what was what surprised you in your attempts to build those bridges between those two fan bases ? And what were your findings? In summary , I'm so glad that resonated. You know, I was I was when thinking about the prejudice that so many people hold toward other groups, I was looking for a context where we could study it, where the actual stakes are minimal, but the emotional stakes feel very high. And sports fan allegiances, it just it felt like the perfect place to go. I mean, a few years ago, I got to know an amazing woman in her 70s who helps Holocaust survivors. And one day she mentioned that she went to Ohio State. And my first reaction was, yuck. Yeah, I'm a Michigan Wolverine. We're rivals, but who cares where she went to school half a century ago? Yeah, it just bothered me at a fundamental level. And so I decided, you know, like any self respecting social scientist, I should study that. And so Tim and I and all these experiments with the Yankees and Red Sox fans, which was such an easy rivalry to choose. And I think my my biggest surprise was that two of the steps that were supposed to work based on all the existing science, didn't you know one of those was was just creating a common identity as baseball fans? And, you know, people would say, yeah, you know, I would help a Yankees fan if they were in an emergency. But otherwise, you know, they're rooting for an evil team. So no, thank you. And then the other one was to to try to humanize the individual fan, where basically what happened was people said, all right, you know what? There's this one Yankees fan who's OK, but he's not like the other ones. And I still hate all the rest of them. So what ultimately ended up working and in a way that I was I was surprised by the power of it actually was saying, look, you know, maybe we just need to get people to rethink how they became fans in the first place. So imagine if you had grown up in New York. Would you possibly root for the now you're probably root for the Mets. But the point is, you might not be a Red Sox fan. I'm not crazy. Exactly. I'm joking. I'm joking. All my Mets fans, friends, I'm joking. I don't know if you are, but go on. I'm joking anyway. I know I keep going, please. Well, no. So I thought this idea of just, you know, considering the possibility that we could hold different views all of a sudden, it it just destabilizes a lot of the stereotypes and prejudices that people hold. And so, as you know, we ran these really entertaining experiments where we gave people a chance to to punish fans of the opposing team by giving them extra spicy hot sauce or by giving them really difficult math problems, which were actually going to hurt their payment for participating in the study. And we found that, lo and behold, after we just got fans to think about how they might root for a different team if they had been born in a different city, that was enough to get them to show less animosity toward fans of the opposing team, which I thought was amazing. And this did not make it into the book. But we just finished a couple of experiments with with gun control and gun rights advocates where we found that the same process worked for them. That if we got somebody who is extremely concerned about about gun safety, to imagine having been born in a hunting family, they actually were less nasty than to somebody on the other side of the aisle. So I think there might be something to this. Fantastic. So I can't thank you enough for talking to me on your show about you, you should do the the goodbye because it's your show. But I just I wanted to thank you for the the honor and opportunity. Well, I can't thank you enough for coming. I'm so grateful that you read the book. You liked it that you're willing to talk about it. It's a huge gift to me and our listeners. And I loved getting a little bit inside of your mind and your work life. And most importantly, the work you do has has always been just a huge source of inspiration to me. But over the past year, you have been a source of light and hope and entertainment and creative inspiration . And I just want to thank you for for everything that you do to entertain us and to get us to rethink so many of the things that we think we know. Holy crap. That was unbelievable. Way too generous, but your your words are incredibly appreciated. And and again, thank you for this amazing book and your kind words. WorkLife is hosted by me, Adam Grant. Our team includes Colin Helmes, Greg Achen , Dan O'Donnell, Constanza Guardo, Joanne DeLuna, Grace Rubenstein, Michelle Quint, Angela Chang and Anna Felin. This episode was produced by Jessica Glaser and supported by Viking Penguin. Think again. The power of knowing what you don't know is available in whatever format you like print, electronic stone, tablet or audio narrated by me.

Frequently Occurring Word Combinations


ngrams of length 2

collocation frequency
star wars 5
time thinking 4
red sox 4
mm hmm 3
work life 3
adam grant 2
holding fast 2
uncontrollable world 2
incredibly powerful 2
feel compelled 2
prosecutor mode 2
magic tricks 2
favorite character 2
opposing team 2
people hold 2
yankees fan 2



Important Words


  1. abc
  2. ability
  3. abrams
  4. absolutely
  5. accelerated
  6. access
  7. accountable
  8. achen
  9. achieved
  10. actual
  11. adam
  12. add
  13. adjustments
  14. admire
  15. admit
  16. admitting
  17. advocates
  18. affect
  19. afraid
  20. afterward
  21. aggressively
  22. agree
  23. agreed
  24. airtight
  25. aisle
  26. alias
  27. allegiances
  28. allowed
  29. amazement
  30. amazing
  31. american
  32. amount
  33. angela
  34. animosity
  35. anna
  36. announced
  37. annoys
  38. answer
  39. answered
  40. appealed
  41. appealing
  42. appease
  43. applied
  44. apply
  45. appreciated
  46. approval
  47. apps
  48. areas
  49. argument
  50. arguments
  51. arrive
  52. arrived
  53. asked
  54. aspect
  55. assume
  56. assuming
  57. assumption
  58. assumptions
  59. attached
  60. attempts
  61. attention
  62. audience
  63. audiences
  64. audio
  65. author
  66. authoritarian
  67. authority
  68. automatical
  69. avoid
  70. awakens
  71. bad
  72. bandwidth
  73. barrier
  74. baseball
  75. based
  76. bases
  77. basic
  78. basically
  79. battle
  80. beaming
  81. beautiful
  82. begging
  83. behaved
  84. behold
  85. belief
  86. beliefs
  87. belonging
  88. beloved
  89. benefit
  90. big
  91. biggest
  92. bit
  93. black
  94. blackberry
  95. blockbuster
  96. body
  97. bonus
  98. book
  99. books
  100. born
  101. boss
  102. bothered
  103. brainstorming
  104. braun
  105. break
  106. breaking
  107. bridges
  108. bring
  109. brings
  110. broadcast
  111. broken
  112. build
  113. bully
  114. bunch
  115. business
  116. called
  117. camera
  118. campaign
  119. career
  120. cares
  121. carlton
  122. carry
  123. carrying
  124. case
  125. cases
  126. cast
  127. casting
  128. cater
  129. caveat
  130. center
  131. century
  132. ceos
  133. chance
  134. chang
  135. change
  136. changed
  137. chapter
  138. chapters
  139. character
  140. characters
  141. charge
  142. chat
  143. chemistry
  144. chewie
  145. children
  146. choices
  147. choose
  148. city
  149. classic
  150. clear
  151. clicked
  152. clock
  153. close
  154. closed
  155. cloverfield
  156. clueless
  157. coherent
  158. colin
  159. collaborate
  160. collaboration
  161. collaborations
  162. colleague
  163. comfort
  164. comfortable
  165. comforts
  166. coming
  167. commercial
  168. commit
  169. common
  170. communities
  171. company
  172. compelled
  173. compelling
  174. completely
  175. concerned
  176. conducting
  177. conference
  178. confront
  179. connective
  180. constantly
  181. constanza
  182. constituents
  183. constrained
  184. consultant
  185. context
  186. control
  187. controllable
  188. controlling
  189. conversation
  190. conversations
  191. convinced
  192. cool
  193. copy
  194. count
  195. couple
  196. covid
  197. crap
  198. crash
  199. crazy
  200. created
  201. creating
  202. creative
  203. credit
  204. critical
  205. crunched
  206. cult
  207. culture
  208. cultures
  209. curious
  210. currency
  211. curve
  212. cuse
  213. cuts
  214. damini
  215. damon
  216. dan
  217. data
  218. date
  219. dates
  220. david
  221. day
  222. dead
  223. debunk
  224. decide
  225. decided
  226. decimate
  227. declarative
  228. deeper
  229. defeat
  230. defensive
  231. defining
  232. degree
  233. deluna
  234. demise
  235. depth
  236. desktop
  237. desperate
  238. desperately
  239. desperation
  240. destabilizes
  241. difference
  242. difficult
  243. directed
  244. director
  245. disagree
  246. discussion
  247. disease
  248. disproportionate
  249. diversity
  250. domain
  251. drawers
  252. dream
  253. dreamer
  254. drive
  255. dropped
  256. dropping
  257. early
  258. easy
  259. edited
  260. effective
  261. effects
  262. electronic
  263. embrace
  264. emergency
  265. emotional
  266. emperor
  267. empire
  268. ended
  269. ends
  270. enemies
  271. enlightenment
  272. entertain
  273. entertaining
  274. entertainment
  275. entire
  276. episode
  277. episodes
  278. essentially
  279. evaluator
  280. evidence
  281. evil
  282. examine
  283. examined
  284. examples
  285. executed
  286. exist
  287. existing
  288. expand
  289. expect
  290. expensive
  291. experience
  292. experiences
  293. experiment
  294. experiments
  295. expertise
  296. experts
  297. extra
  298. extremely
  299. eyes
  300. facing
  301. fact
  302. failed
  303. fairy
  304. faith
  305. falcon
  306. fallen
  307. families
  308. family
  309. fan
  310. fans
  311. fantastic
  312. fast
  313. favorite
  314. fear
  315. february
  316. feedback
  317. feel
  318. feeling
  319. feels
  320. felicity
  321. felin
  322. felt
  323. fight
  324. figure
  325. file
  326. filmed
  327. films
  328. finally
  329. financial
  330. find
  331. finding
  332. findings
  333. finish
  334. finished
  335. fit
  336. flexibility
  337. flexible
  338. flexing
  339. floyd
  340. focus
  341. follow
  342. followers
  343. force
  344. forces
  345. forest
  346. form
  347. format
  348. forming
  349. founders
  350. framework
  351. frankly
  352. free
  353. freedom
  354. freethinkers
  355. friends
  356. frustrating
  357. fuels
  358. full
  359. fun
  360. fundamental
  361. funnier
  362. funny
  363. gasping
  364. gather
  365. gave
  366. geekiest
  367. generate
  368. generous
  369. genius
  370. george
  371. gervais
  372. gift
  373. gimmicks
  374. give
  375. givers
  376. giving
  377. glad
  378. glaser
  379. global
  380. goal
  381. god
  382. godfather
  383. good
  384. goodbye
  385. grace
  386. grade
  387. grant
  388. grappling
  389. grasping
  390. grateful
  391. great
  392. greatest
  393. greg
  394. ground
  395. grounded
  396. groups
  397. growing
  398. grown
  399. guardo
  400. guess
  401. guessing
  402. guest
  403. gun
  404. halfway
  405. han
  406. happened
  407. happy
  408. hard
  409. harder
  410. hardest
  411. harrison
  412. hate
  413. head
  414. healthy
  415. hear
  416. held
  417. helmes
  418. helps
  419. hey
  420. high
  421. hint
  422. hire
  423. hit
  424. hmm
  425. hmmm
  426. hold
  427. holding
  428. hollywood
  429. holocaust
  430. holy
  431. home
  432. honor
  433. hope
  434. hopeful
  435. host
  436. hosted
  437. hot
  438. hub
  439. huge
  440. human
  441. humanity
  442. humanize
  443. humble
  444. humility
  445. hunch
  446. hung
  447. hunting
  448. hurt
  449. hypotheses
  450. ice
  451. idea
  452. ideal
  453. ideally
  454. ideas
  455. identity
  456. ignorant
  457. imagine
  458. imagining
  459. immediately
  460. immortality
  461. impatient
  462. important
  463. importantly
  464. impossible
  465. impractical
  466. inability
  467. incarnations
  468. includes
  469. including
  470. incredible
  471. incredibly
  472. individual
  473. indoctrinate
  474. inevitability
  475. infinitely
  476. information
  477. infuriating
  478. insane
  479. insight
  480. insisting
  481. inspiration
  482. instinct
  483. intentionally
  484. interest
  485. interested
  486. interesting
  487. interrogating
  488. interview
  489. invariably
  490. jerry
  491. jessica
  492. jj
  493. joanne
  494. job
  495. jobs
  496. joke
  497. joking
  498. jumping
  499. juxtaposed
  500. kate
  501. keeping
  502. keyboard
  503. khan
  504. kicking
  505. kid
  506. kids
  507. kind
  508. kindly
  509. kinds
  510. king
  511. knowing
  512. knowledge
  513. knowledgeable
  514. kodak
  515. lab
  516. lack
  517. landed
  518. language
  519. larger
  520. larry
  521. latoya
  522. launches
  523. lead
  524. leap
  525. learn
  526. learned
  527. learning
  528. led
  529. left
  530. lens
  531. lessons
  532. letting
  533. level
  534. life
  535. lifers
  536. light
  537. likelihood
  538. likes
  539. list
  540. listeners
  541. literally
  542. live
  543. lives
  544. lloyd
  545. lo
  546. location
  547. logic
  548. long
  549. looked
  550. lost
  551. lot
  552. love
  553. loved
  554. lucky
  555. magic
  556. magical
  557. magician
  558. making
  559. man
  560. markets
  561. material
  562. math
  563. matt
  564. matter
  565. matters
  566. means
  567. meet
  568. meeting
  569. meetings
  570. mentioned
  571. met
  572. metaphors
  573. mets
  574. michael
  575. michelle
  576. michigan
  577. micromanaged
  578. microphone
  579. middle
  580. mildly
  581. mill
  582. mind
  583. minded
  584. minds
  585. mindset
  586. mindsets
  587. minimal
  588. minimum
  589. minute
  590. mix
  591. mm
  592. mode
  593. model
  594. modes
  595. moment
  596. moments
  597. morgan
  598. morning
  599. motivate
  600. motivated
  601. motivator
  602. move
  603. moves
  604. movie
  605. movies
  606. music
  607. myths
  608. named
  609. narrated
  610. nasty
  611. natural
  612. night
  613. nonintuitive
  614. norm
  615. normal
  616. norms
  617. notes
  618. nuance
  619. number
  620. observed
  621. obvious
  622. occurred
  623. occurring
  624. office
  625. offices
  626. officially
  627. ohio
  628. oil
  629. online
  630. open
  631. opening
  632. operate
  633. opinion
  634. opinions
  635. opportunity
  636. opposed
  637. opposing
  638. optimal
  639. optimism
  640. orbit
  641. order
  642. organizational
  643. organize
  644. original
  645. originals
  646. outline
  647. overarching
  648. overconfidence
  649. overcorrected
  650. overmatch
  651. pace
  652. palpatine
  653. pandemic
  654. parent
  655. part
  656. participating
  657. partnership
  658. partnerships
  659. parts
  660. passionate
  661. paths
  662. pay
  663. payment
  664. penguin
  665. people
  666. perfect
  667. perfectly
  668. performer
  669. performing
  670. period
  671. person
  672. personal
  673. personally
  674. persuasive
  675. phil
  676. physical
  677. picking
  678. picture
  679. pieces
  680. pilot
  681. place
  682. plane
  683. plays
  684. podcast
  685. point
  686. points
  687. politician
  688. politicians
  689. positions
  690. possibility
  691. possibly
  692. post
  693. posted
  694. posture
  695. potential
  696. power
  697. powerful
  698. powers
  699. practice
  700. practices
  701. preachers
  702. preaching
  703. predictable
  704. prejudice
  705. prejudices
  706. premiered
  707. prequels
  708. present
  709. pressure
  710. preview
  711. pride
  712. print
  713. problem
  714. problems
  715. process
  716. produced
  717. productive
  718. professional
  719. professions
  720. profound
  721. profoundly
  722. promise
  723. prosecuting
  724. prosecutor
  725. prosecutors
  726. protest
  727. protests
  728. proud
  729. psychologist
  730. publisher
  731. punish
  732. pure
  733. pursue
  734. put
  735. putting
  736. puzzle
  737. quality
  738. quarantine
  739. question
  740. questioning
  741. questions
  742. quickly
  743. quint
  744. racism
  745. raise
  746. ran
  747. reached
  748. reaction
  749. reactions
  750. read
  751. reading
  752. ready
  753. realize
  754. realized
  755. reasons
  756. recession
  757. reconsider
  758. red
  759. redoing
  760. reduce
  761. reeves
  762. reexamine
  763. reflective
  764. regain
  765. relatable
  766. relearning
  767. release
  768. relevant
  769. reluctant
  770. rely
  771. remember
  772. reminds
  773. remotely
  774. render
  775. research
  776. researcher
  777. resonated
  778. resource
  779. respect
  780. respecting
  781. rest
  782. rethink
  783. rethinking
  784. rethought
  785. reunion
  786. rewarded
  787. rewrite
  788. richer
  789. ricky
  790. rights
  791. rigorous
  792. rise
  793. rivalry
  794. rivals
  795. role
  796. room
  797. rooms
  798. root
  799. rooting
  800. rose
  801. rough
  802. routine
  803. rubenstein
  804. run
  805. running
  806. ruthless
  807. sacrilege
  808. safety
  809. sauce
  810. sawyer
  811. sayid
  812. scene
  813. school
  814. schools
  815. science
  816. scientist
  817. scientists
  818. scott
  819. scouting
  820. scratch
  821. script
  822. sears
  823. season
  824. seasons
  825. secret
  826. seek
  827. seinfeld
  828. selling
  829. sense
  830. series
  831. set
  832. setting
  833. setup
  834. seventh
  835. share
  836. shift
  837. ship
  838. shock
  839. shoot
  840. shooting
  841. shot
  842. show
  843. showing
  844. shows
  845. shut
  846. side
  847. sidebar
  848. sides
  849. sign
  850. silliest
  851. sisyphean
  852. sitting
  853. skills
  854. skywalker
  855. small
  856. smart
  857. smartest
  858. snake
  859. sneak
  860. social
  861. sociologists
  862. solo
  863. sort
  864. sounds
  865. source
  866. sox
  867. speaker
  868. specific
  869. specificity
  870. spend
  871. spent
  872. spicy
  873. spilled
  874. spillover
  875. sports
  876. spot
  877. stakes
  878. stand
  879. star
  880. start
  881. started
  882. starts
  883. state
  884. status
  885. stay
  886. step
  887. stephen
  888. steps
  889. stereotypes
  890. sticky
  891. stone
  892. stop
  893. stories
  894. story
  895. storyteller
  896. strategy
  897. strength
  898. strikes
  899. stubborn
  900. stuck
  901. studies
  902. study
  903. studying
  904. stunning
  905. stupid
  906. substance
  907. success
  908. successful
  909. sudden
  910. suddenly
  911. summary
  912. super
  913. supported
  914. supporting
  915. supposed
  916. surprise
  917. surprised
  918. surprising
  919. survived
  920. survivors
  921. sweet
  922. switch
  923. symphony
  924. systemic
  925. systems
  926. table
  927. tablet
  928. tackling
  929. takers
  930. talk
  931. talking
  932. teacher
  933. team
  934. teams
  935. tears
  936. television
  937. telling
  938. template
  939. terms
  940. test
  941. tested
  942. tetlock
  943. themes
  944. thinker
  945. thinkers
  946. thinking
  947. thinks
  948. thought
  949. thoughtful
  950. thousand
  951. threat
  952. threats
  953. thrilled
  954. ticking
  955. tim
  956. time
  957. times
  958. tires
  959. tissue
  960. today
  961. told
  962. ton
  963. top
  964. topic
  965. torture
  966. town
  967. treated
  968. treating
  969. trees
  970. trek
  971. tribe
  972. trick
  973. tricks
  974. trilogy
  975. trips
  976. true
  977. truest
  978. truth
  979. tubes
  980. tuned
  981. turn
  982. tv
  983. twitter
  984. typically
  985. ultimately
  986. unbelievable
  987. uncertain
  988. uncertainty
  989. uncontrollable
  990. underlying
  991. undermines
  992. understand
  993. understandably
  994. understanding
  995. universe
  996. valid
  997. validated
  998. validates
  999. vast
  1000. versa
  1001. vice
  1002. view
  1003. views
  1004. viking
  1005. vision
  1006. voice
  1007. votes
  1008. vulnerable
  1009. wait
  1010. wake
  1011. wanted
  1012. wars
  1013. watch
  1014. watched
  1015. watching
  1016. ways
  1017. weakness
  1018. weapon
  1019. week
  1020. weeks
  1021. weird
  1022. weirdly
  1023. wheel
  1024. whiteboard
  1025. wield
  1026. wildly
  1027. win
  1028. wisdom
  1029. wolverine
  1030. woman
  1031. won
  1032. wondered
  1033. wonderful
  1034. wondering
  1035. words
  1036. work
  1037. worked
  1038. working
  1039. worklife
  1040. workplaces
  1041. world
  1042. worldview
  1043. worth
  1044. wow
  1045. wrestled
  1046. write
  1047. writer
  1048. writers
  1049. writing
  1050. written
  1051. wrong
  1052. wrote
  1053. yankees
  1054. yeah
  1055. year
  1056. years
  1057. york
  1058. yuck
  1059. zoo
  1060. zoome